Duvduv

But this passage only makes sense at a time when there existed the "church" rather than at a time said to be in the 1st or 2nd century. The earlier version would have gone from verse 17 to verse 20, with the later insertions/tamperings as verses 18 and 19. The point is that a stated canon of a 2nd century Irenaeus or Tertullian etc. would not allow for tampering by the 4th or 5th century, suggesting the possibility that the whole story was not an immutable holy scripture until the time of the Byzantinian regime.

Of course it would sound better if it said, "I tell you that you, Peter, are the rock upon which......" (with the pun of the name understood).

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Duvduv

Looking at this passage again, it becomes more interesting. In verse 16 the speaker is called Simon Peter (in Greek, "Simon Petros"). In verse 17 Jesus does not call him that at first, but merely Simon Bar-Yona. Then verse 18 he says "I TELL YOU that you are Peter (Petros), which we know from verse 16. And then Jesus does not say "YOU ("Petros") are the rock on which I build my church," but merely "on THIS ROCK ("Petra") I will build my church."

Even if this is an interpolation, how does it get connected to Cephas, which is the Greek rendition (not translation) of the name Kepkha, meaning rock, which the average reader would not know? Especially when in Greek PETRA, not PETROS means rock?

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Duvduv

If the author of the passage intended for Jesus to be calling Simon Petros by the name of Kepha (rock), why would the Aramaic word be used in Greek without explaining the meaning in relation to petra or petros?
Furthermore, it appears that the foundation stone of whatever name is meant to compare "the church" with the Temple in Jerusalem which was built around the EVEN HASHETIYA, the foundation stone about which there are many descriptions in midrashic literature.

steve_bnk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

'...The word pope derives from Greek πάππας meaning "Father". In the early centuries of Christianity, this title was applied, especially in the east, to all bishops and other senior clergy, and later became reserved in the west to the Bishop of Rome, a reservation made official only in the 11th century.[12][13][14][15][16] The earliest record of the use of this title was in regard to the by then deceased Patriarch of Alexandria, Pope Heraclas of Alexandria (232–248).[17] The earliest recorded use of the title "pope" in English dates to the mid-10th century, when it was used in reference to Pope Vitalian in an Old English translation of Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People.[18]

The title was from the early 3rd century a general term used to refer to all bishops.[19] From the 6th century the title began to be used particularly of the Bishop of Rome, and in the late 11th century Pope Gregory VII issued a declaration that has been widely interpreted as stating this by then established Western convention.[19] By the same 6th century this was also the normal practice of the imperial chancery of Constantinople.[19]..'


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphanius_of_Salamis

'...Epiphanius of Salamis (inter 310–320 – 403) was bishop of Salamis at the end of the 4th century..'

Pope was synonomous with bishop.

sotto voce

Is this a place of scholarship, or one for silly or tasteless jokes?

Anglicans admit that the word 'see' has no theological validity, is entirely man-made, and is used by them for practical purposes only. Moreover, they obviously make no greater importance of their Jerusalem see than that of any in England, Africa or elsewhere. Of course, those we know as real Christians do not have 'sees'.

So the question remains. One will search Acts in vain for the word 'see', or any word or construction that could conceivably be used to justify it, in Jerusalem, Rome or anywhere else. As we should know here, the word is justified only from civil administration of the Roman Empire; from invasion of 'the unwashed', of totalitarian politics, light years from the intention of the whole Bible, from start to finish. There can be no 'popes', because there is nowhere for a pope to be. (Even if such an obvious invention as a pope was to try to work his way into a church. Whosoever promotes himself, thereby excludes himself, in considerable embarrassment.)

sotto voce

There are two reasons for calling someone 'father' in a religious context. One has either been duped by a conman, or one is so terrified of the gospel, or perhaps of a soldier, that one does so out of sheer fear. Jerome was doubtless terrified of the gospel and a soldier.

Today, it is just the gospel that drives people to twist Mt 16:18 out of recognition.

steve_bnk

The RCC derives its Earthly authority interpreting JC as estabilshing a church with Peter as the first 'pope'. Protestants, obviously from the reformation, see no such justificatio for the office of pope as it evolved in the RCC

The popes are said to be successors in aline back to Peter.

sotto voce

So Jesus existed?

steve_bnk

Calling somone father can be a sign of respect or position in other cultures.

sotto voce

What 'other cultures'?