TedM

Does anyone know of a good site that lists all of the early pre-Eusebius references by Church Fathers (and perhaps others) to the writings of Josephus? I'm trying to determine to what extent one would reasonably expect the TF to have been referenced before Eusebius, as IMO the argument from silence is potentially the strongest argument against a Josephus passage describing Jesus.

thanks,

ted

The Bishop

Really? All of them? You want a list of every single one? Wow. That'll be..... oh, here it is. Origen, from Ben C. Smith's website. That's about it.

As to the purported strength of an Argument from Silence, well, in my view you can use it to shore up propositions based on other kinds of evidence, but I wouldn't ever regard it as the strongest argument in favour of anything.

I'm new here, but cue lots of people recommending you use the search facility before posting new threads about Josephus, particularly when there's another Josephus thread right near the top of the topic list already.:Cheeky:

TedM

Thanks, but that's not what I'm asking for (although it is a good reference). I'm looking for a list of ANY reference to Josephus prior to Eusebius by Church Fathers--NOT references to Jesus within Josephus. IOW I want to know which Church Fathers had read something by Josephus. Then I can determine how strong the argument about their silence regarding the TF really is.


In this case, I don't feel like most of the arguments on Kirby's site for or against a partially authentic TF are particularly strong. I do think that IF Church Fathers felt the need to bolster their arguments for either a historical Jesus or a gospel Jesus AND they knew of the TF, the argument then we would expect them to use it IS a fairly strong argument.

Ted

Chris Weimer

Besides Eusebius, the list I have so far is Origen, John Chrysostom, Jerome, and Ambrose. And except for Origen, the other three all post-date Eusebius.

TedM

Here is what I'm getting at. From Kirby's article on the TF:

Do these pre-Eusebius authors quote from Josephus or reference him? If so, from what books and in what ways? To defend the faith? etc... That's the kind of list I'm looking for..

EDIT: Here's something along the same lines from Muller's site:

This is what I'm talking about: Does anyone have a list of these people and what they cited from Josephus?

ted

Chris Weimer

I have searched for and looked for a good resource online about ancient authors who show familiarity with Josephus, and I have yet to find any. Perhaps this would be a good thread to gather all the information that we have?

S.C.Carlson

Roger Pearse has a decent page on this question: Josephus in the Ante-Nicene Fathers: all the citations

Peter Kirby

Roger Pearse has done this.

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/josephus/josephus.htm

And, of course, there is Michael Hardwick's book.

regards,
Peter Kirby

TedM

Thanks S.C. and Peter. That's exactly the kind of reference I was looking for!

ted

Chris Weimer

Excellent Stephen and Peter. How could I have missed Roger's page before?