Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dongiovanni1976x · 04-04-2007, 10:39 AM

I wanted to formulate a particular argument and was curious if the idea of Hell developed in tandem with Satan since there is no literal mention of the modern concept of either in the Old Testament.

For example, Isa 14:12 refers to the Babylonian King (Heb: heylel: Morning Star) who HAD held sway over the nations etc...The KJV translates this as Lucifer (light-bearer) and when modern ears hear this they immediately invoke Dante or Milton. Of the 15 mentions of Satan in the Old Testament (when the KJV) translates it to Satan (instead of just adversary) only two are from older books in the Bible (Psalms 109:6 & 1 Chronicles 21:1) the rest are in Job (certainly not the oldest book in the Bible like a few fundamentalist pastors would like to argue) and two in the book of the later prophet Zechariah.

When I ask certain Christians why Adam sinned in Paradise they usually say, "that was because the Serpent tempted him." and I might reply with, "Why was the Serpent tempting him, if this is supposed to be paradise?" and invariably I get the response, "The Serpent was Satan, who was cast out of Heaven because of his sin of pride."

But what really are Christians basing this upon? Is it really just an intuitive construction of Rev 12:4 & 7...?

Cege · 04-04-2007, 11:12 AM

This article about Satan: A Biography (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Henry Ansgar Kelly gives some ideas about where the ideas modern day Christians hold concerning Satan:

http://www.physorg.com/news75128924.html

John Kesler · 04-04-2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

"The Serpent was Satan, who was cast out of Heaven because of his sin of pride."But what really are Christians basing this upon? Is it really just an intuitive construction of Rev 12:4 & 7...?

The Satan-serpent connection goes back as least as far as The Wisdom of Solomon 2:23-24:

Quote:

23 for God created us for incorruption, and made us in the image of his own eternity, 24 but through the devil's envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his company experience it.

Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 call Satan "that ancient serpent," and Philo says that the devil spoke by the serpent's mouth:

Quote:

Moreover, the devil proceeds with great art, speaking by the mouth of the serpent. For not only is there in the Divinity the knowledge of good and evil, but there is also an approval of what is good and a repudiation of what is evil;

Paul alludes to the Satan-serpent conflation. See 2 Corinthians 11 and Romans 16:

Quote:

2 Corinthians 11:3; 13-15
3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by its cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
13 For such boasters are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Romans 16:20 (Compare the curse on the serpent in Genesis 3:15)
20 The God of peace will shortly crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

The pseudepigraphal work, "Apocalypse of Moses" 17:1-4 preserves the tradition that Satan was an angel and spoke through the serpent:

Quote:

And instantly he hung himself from the wall of paradise, and when the angels ascended to worship God, then Satan appeared in the form of an angel and sang hymns like the angels. And I bent over the wall and saw him, like an angel. But he saith to me: "Art thou Eve?" And I said to him, "I am." 'What art thou doing in paradise?" And I said to him, "God set us to guard and to eat of it." The devil answered through the mouth of the serpent...

Cege · 04-04-2007, 11:39 AM

Paul's writings mention Satan, and it seems reasonable that Paul would have a Pharisee's understanding about all things Satan, which Paul would then relate to Christianity.

What were Pharisees of the 1st century taught about Satan, and from what sources?

gstafleu · 04-04-2007, 11:43 AM

The Serpent has an ambivalent character in the OT. First it seduces Eve (bad snake) but it also tells her that God fibbed about her dying if she were to have sex (good snake). Then a little later (Num 21) God sends a plague of serpents to the naughty Israelites (bad snakes), but then tells Moses how to fix that by putting up a statue of a bronze serpent on a stick which will protect them (good snake). And to top it off, in 2 Kings 18 Hezekiah, who "did what was right in the eyes of the LORD," broke this bronze snake into little pieces. So who knows about the Serpent in the OT!

Gerard Stafleu

Malachi151 · 04-04-2007, 01:46 PM

Interestingly, the word devil never appears in the OT. From what I understand, though this could be wrong, the word evil comes from Daeva, the name of an India goddess that entered into the Greek language after the conquest of Alexander.

figuer · 04-04-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

....though this could be wrong, the word evil comes from Daeva, the name of an India goddess...

Devil; from A.Sax. "deofol", from Latin "diabolus", from Greek "diabolos", the accuser, from "diaballo", to accuse. (Webster)

figuer · 04-04-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

... Daeva, the name of an India goddess...

Daeva is the Avestan form of the reconstructed Proto-Iranian word daivah, an exact cognate of Proto-Indo-Aryan daivas, Sanskrit deva, meaning "god" or "deity".

Both daivah and daivas descend, via expected sound-changes, from Proto-Indo-European deywos, an adjective meaning "celestial" or "shining", whose other descendants include Latin deus and Latvian dievs "god", and via the Proto-Germanic Teiwaz and Tîwaz, the Old Norse deity Tyr.

(From Wikipedia)

Toto · 04-04-2007, 03:11 PM

Evil is not derived from daeva or devil in any case.

Sauron · 04-04-2007, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

I wanted to formulate a particular argument and was curious if the idea of Hell developed in tandem with Satan since there is no literal mention of the modern concept of either in the Old Testament.

For example, Isa 14:12 refers to the Babylonian King (Heb: heylel: Morning Star) who HAD held sway over the nations etc...The KJV translates this as Lucifer (light-bearer) and when modern ears hear this they immediately invoke Dante or Milton. Of the 15 mentions of Satan in the Old Testament (when the KJV) translates it to Satan (instead of just adversary) only two are from older books in the Bible (Psalms 109:6 & 1 Chronicles 21:1) the rest are in Job (certainly not the oldest book in the Bible like a few fundamentalist pastors would like to argue) and two in the book of the later prophet Zechariah.

When I ask certain Christians why Adam sinned in Paradise they usually say, "that was because the Serpent tempted him." and I might reply with, "Why was the Serpent tempting him, if this is supposed to be paradise?" and invariably I get the response, "The Serpent was Satan, who was cast out of Heaven because of his sin of pride."

But what really are Christians basing this upon? Is it really just an intuitive construction of Rev 12:4 & 7...?

The word "devil" appears in the OT four times. Here is a representative usage:

LEV 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

Satan appears once in 2nd Chronicles, then prominently in the book of Job, more in the role of accuser and prosecuting attorney. That role is played out again in Zechariah.

04-04-2007, 10:39 AM	#1
dongiovanni1976x Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 686	Biblical Evidence for Satan, the Serpent(?) I wanted to formulate a particular argument and was curious if the idea of Hell developed in tandem with Satan since there is no literal mention of the modern concept of either in the Old Testament. For example, Isa 14:12 refers to the Babylonian King (Heb: heylel: Morning Star) who HAD held sway over the nations etc...The KJV translates this as Lucifer (light-bearer) and when modern ears hear this they immediately invoke Dante or Milton. Of the 15 mentions of Satan in the Old Testament (when the KJV) translates it to Satan (instead of just adversary) only two are from older books in the Bible (Psalms 109:6 & 1 Chronicles 21:1) the rest are in Job (certainly not the oldest book in the Bible like a few fundamentalist pastors would like to argue) and two in the book of the later prophet Zechariah. When I ask certain Christians why Adam sinned in Paradise they usually say, "that was because the Serpent tempted him." and I might reply with, "Why was the Serpent tempting him, if this is supposed to be paradise?" and invariably I get the response, "The Serpent was Satan, who was cast out of Heaven because of his sin of pride." But what really are Christians basing this upon? Is it really just an intuitive construction of Rev 12:4 & 7...?

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04-04-2007, 11:12 AM	#2
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	This article about Satan: A Biography (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Henry Ansgar Kelly gives some ideas about where the ideas modern day Christians hold concerning Satan: http://www.physorg.com/news75128924.html

04-04-2007, 11:39 AM	#4
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	Paul's writings mention Satan, and it seems reasonable that Paul would have a Pharisee's understanding about all things Satan, which Paul would then relate to Christianity. What were Pharisees of the 1st century taught about Satan, and from what sources?

04-04-2007, 11:43 AM	#5
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	The Serpent has an ambivalent character in the OT. First it seduces Eve (bad snake) but it also tells her that God fibbed about her dying if she were to have sex (good snake). Then a little later (Num 21) God sends a plague of serpents to the naughty Israelites (bad snakes), but then tells Moses how to fix that by putting up a statue of a bronze serpent on a stick which will protect them (good snake). And to top it off, in 2 Kings 18 Hezekiah, who "did what was right in the eyes of the LORD," broke this bronze snake into little pieces. So who knows about the Serpent in the OT! Gerard Stafleu

04-04-2007, 01:46 PM	#6
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Interestingly, the word devil never appears in the OT. From what I understand, though this could be wrong, the word evil comes from Daeva, the name of an India goddess that entered into the Greek language after the conquest of Alexander.

04-04-2007, 03:11 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Evil is not derived from daeva or devil in any case.

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