Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 09-04-2007, 10:48 PM

Mark attacks Peter on many occasions.

Mark presumably regarded Peter as a false teacher.

But what could Peter have been teaching that led Mark, a believer in an historical Jesus, to write a book which denigrates him so much?

aa5874 · 09-04-2007, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Mark attacks Peter on many occasions.

Mark presumably regarded Peter as a false teacher.

But what could Peter have been teaching that led Mark, a believer in an historical Jesus, to write a book which denigrates him so much?

gMark presented Jesus as a god-man, definitely not an HJ. Only a god-man can transfigure and walk on water, see Mark 9.2-10 and Mark 6.49. There is a distinct difference between a god-man and an HJ.

Can you make reference to passages in Mark of this denigration of Peter, so that it will be easy to follow?

Ray Moscow · 09-05-2007, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Mark attacks Peter on many occasions.

Mark presumably regarded Peter as a false teacher.

But what could Peter have been teaching that led Mark, a believer in an historical Jesus, to write a book which denigrates him so much?

Robert Price has a bit about that in his The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man (or via: amazon.co.uk). He thinks Mark compiled traditions from various Christian factions, and the anti-Peter bits are probably started by those Christians from other traditions who resented the "Peter rules the church" line.

Ray

chrisrkline · 09-05-2007, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Mark attacks Peter on many occasions.

Mark presumably regarded Peter as a false teacher.

But what could Peter have been teaching that led Mark, a believer in an historical Jesus, to write a book which denigrates him so much?

Robert Price has a bit about that in his The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. He thinks Mark compiled traditions from various Christian factions, and the anti-Peter bits are probably started by those Christians from other traditions who resented the "Peter rules the church" line.

Ray

Price also contends that gMark may have been written like a novel. In any case, it may be that the characters of Peter and the other disciples are novelistic (or midrashic) stand-ins for an early faction in the church (Cephas and the Twelve?) and Mark is showing disdain for this group.

Clouseau · 09-05-2007, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Mark attacks Peter on many occasions.

Mark presumably regarded Peter as a false teacher.

But what could Peter have been teaching that led Mark, a believer in an historical Jesus, to write a book which denigrates him so much?

Was Mark engaged in simple character assassination, or was there some direction, some method in his approach?

Julian · 09-05-2007, 09:08 AM

My contention was always that Mark represents a group of christians that oppose the teachings of the church traditionally derived from the disciples, probably the future orthodoxy. In other words, some churches use the weight of apostolic (i.e. the disciples) tradition and Mark figures that the best way to attack them would be to show how the disciples, and Peter in particular, were misguided and didn't understand the teachings of Jesus. If the disciples didn't understand then neither do their churches, obviously.

Julian

Clouseau · 09-05-2007, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

My contention was always that Mark represents a group of christians that oppose the teachings of the church traditionally derived from the disciples, probably the future orthodoxy.

On what grounds have you made this contention?

Amaleq13 · 09-05-2007, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

My contention was always that Mark represents a group of christians that oppose the teachings of the church traditionally derived from the disciples, probably the future orthodoxy.

On what grounds have you made this contention?

It seems to me that the rest of the paragraph already provides the answer to your question.

Clouseau · 09-05-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

On what grounds have you made this contention?

It seems to me that the rest of the paragraph already provides the answer to your question.

Then please explain how you reached this conclusion from the following:

'In other words, some churches use the weight of apostolic (i.e. the disciples) tradition and Mark figures that the best way to attack them would be to show how the disciples, and Peter in particular, were misguided and didn't understand the teachings of Jesus.'

That contains nothing but further opinion, with no reference to Mark's Gospel, which is, to the present, entirely lacking from this thread.

Toto · 09-05-2007, 02:50 PM

To make Clouseau happy, we will now include some of what aMark says about Peter, the rock-headed disciple.

Quote:

Mark 8: Jesus Predicts His Death
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

...

Mark 14 Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial
27 "You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written:
" 'I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.'[c] 28 But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee."
29 Peter declared, "Even if all fall away, I will not."

30" I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice[d] you yourself will disown me three times."

31 But Peter insisted emphatically, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the others said the same.

. . .

37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Simon," he said to Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him

. . .

50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.

. . .

Peter Disowns Jesus
66 While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by. 67 When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him.
"You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus," she said.
68 But he denied it. "I don't know or understand what you're talking about," he said, and went out into the entryway.

69 When the servant girl saw him there, she said again to those standing around, "This fellow is one of them." 70 Again he denied it.
After a little while, those standing near said to Peter, "Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean."

71 He began to call down curses on himself, and he swore to them, "I don't know this man you're talking about."

72 Immediately the rooster crowed the second time.[h] Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: "Before the rooster crows twice[i] you will disown me three times." And he broke down and wept.

. . .
Mark 16

. . .
5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

6 "Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "

8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

What a doofus. Peter never understands, rebukes Christ, falls asleep, denies Christ, and then never gets the message that Jesus rose from the dead.

09-04-2007, 10:48 PM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Why does Mark denigrate Peter so? Mark attacks Peter on many occasions. Mark presumably regarded Peter as a false teacher. But what could Peter have been teaching that led Mark, a believer in an historical Jesus, to write a book which denigrates him so much?

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09-05-2007, 09:08 AM	#6
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	My contention was always that Mark represents a group of christians that oppose the teachings of the church traditionally derived from the disciples, probably the future orthodoxy. In other words, some churches use the weight of apostolic (i.e. the disciples) tradition and Mark figures that the best way to attack them would be to show how the disciples, and Peter in particular, were misguided and didn't understand the teachings of Jesus. If the disciples didn't understand then neither do their churches, obviously. Julian

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