Amos

No problem and without looking further at the context of the passages it takes place in the garden of Gethsemany where Jesus, once again, is abandonned by his faculty of reason in preparation for the final event. Be reminded here that it was a metaphysical event and there was no physical crucifixion in my perspective, nor was there an actual trial. The whole event took place in the mind of one man who was the born again Joseph here called Jesus, and Pilate, Herod, the pharisees, etc. were forces within the mind of Jesus used to stage the event. Many times I have suggested that the Gospels takes place in Purgatory and that is what I am describing to you now.

I'll take you back to the shepherds that were out when Jesus was born (Joseph was reborn). They were out at night because rebirth is a non-rational event and therefore they were out herding all rational thoughts that night. Notice that they never entered the stable (just looked in and admired) for if they would have entered the conscious mind (stable) reason would have returned to the mind of Joseph and Epiphany would not have folowed the event (Epiphany is illumination or entrance into Purgatory = enter the race, etc.). The shepherds were his eiditic images (trades and qualities) of Jesus and therefore his shepherds.

These same shepherds were called to be "fishers of men" (after metanoia) towards the conversion and completion of all rational thoughts that existed in the conscious mind of Jesus -- and those were many because he was pregnant with despair (Joyce's Wake)and therefore "beyond surrender" (Frye's "parody"). The 10 day lapse of time while "beyond reason" is critical in this regard and is evidence that his rebirth was from God and without any human desire. In other words, he called al hands on deck to get to the bottom of this and was determined to succeed.

In this regard Jesus said "what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven and whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven." This means that Jesus was sorting things out with regard to truth in his own mind and this included Judaism and the effect Judaism had on his life thusfar. Remember here he was angry for feeling betrayed by Judaism, very much as Luther was when 'his eyes were first opened' . . . except that Luther's reaction never had a chance to "cool" off by means of awakening before Erasmus and others ran away with it. Notice that Jesus went to Galilea where he could ponder about his own life (Joseph fled to Galilea to indicate that reason returned, and Mary and Jesus are always resident of Joseph's mind but Joseph will increasingly be moved to the background because the born again Jesus must be in charge of destiny).

When all is sorted out the time will come when the two minds are like one and this is where the eiditic images of Jesus can be set aside and more reliance is transferred to the subconscious mind wherefore Herod (subconscious mind) made friends with Pilate of the conscious mind and that is about when the mechanism of faith becomes revealed to Jesus and Judas gets hung for that. We are talking faith seeking understanding here and understanding is where religion ends.

Now you know the backdrop for my perspective it can be argued that when Jesus fell on his face it suggests that he is walking for 99% on intuition and very little reason is used in his everyday life ("Peter the faither" fell asleep first). It is dramatized in Matthew (religious) but really is a happy story wherein Jesus is eagerly awaiting the final stages in the renewal of his mind which in turn is why "Joseph of Arimethea was expectantly looking for the reign of God" (LK.24:50). In Luke the agony is intense but concludes that Jesus does not want his apostles to be tried because they will be his richess in heaven when recalled into the upper room (subconscious mind).

That's the best I can do for now. Oh time related? It was a sacrifice to himself only but not much of one because it was the bare naked ego that was crucified. "Time" here means that he must have all his "loosing and tying done" because only the bare naked ego can be crucified for else reason would prevail and he could not go unto the netherworld to "clean house" there (netherworld is his subconscious mind; see "Mephistopholus in 'WE'"). That Jesus was the "imposter" (persona) is clear when Pilate wanted to be sure that Jesus had died and he would only die if reason could not enter the grave (hence the guards and the stone) because if Jesus would not have died (some reason prevailed) the second imposter would be worse then the first (Mt.27:64c) to indicate that ascention would not follow the event and he'd have a Senecan tragedy on his hand (failed divine comedy).

"Why hast thou forsaken me" is just Matthew. Religion is the "suffering church" and can not see the victory here. Luke says "father into thy hands I commit my spirit" and this means that Jesus is moving to the upper room (comedy). Incidently, on the last page of Joyce's "Portrait" he writes: "Old afther, old artificer, stand me now and ever in good stead." This was after a 40 day count-down with May 1 being the 40 day when new life in heaven began for Joyce.

Sacrificial death is a protestant idea. Paul was a religionist and used it to attract followers but he would sure tell them different if push came to shove.

Jabu Khan

I understand trying to make a transformation model religion out of one of the most authoritarian ones to ever come down the pike is not easy.

Amos

It's absolutely loaded with metaphor and every word has a purpose. Very poetic and densified. It actually sets the trend for the enrichment of the entire civilization and I believe this to be true.

I'd like to tell you who Veronica was but I forgot. Offa once made an interesting suggestion here if I remember right.

In answer to Koyaanisqatsi:

In the netherworld (his soul) Jesus went to set the captives free and these were his incarnate vices and virtues (incarnate is inter-generational such as "the law" that had been written there as if in stone by his ancestors). This also includes why he was called an "upright Jew" and how he had "hewn his own tomb as if out of rock" (Joseph is still Jesus here) etc.

Knowledge and uderstanding must remove the law that was needed for the conviction of sin to actually feel free becaue it just is not good enough to be saved and remain sinner for the rest of life -- which was the problem for the Children of Isreal who therefore failed to mature in understanding and died nonetheless as children of God.

Before Jesus can enter the Upper Room the entire soul must be emptied because the only difference between the new heaven and new earth and the old heaven and earth is he removal of the celestial sea (soul) by means of understanding (Rev.21:1). This again is also why Peter was defrocked when all doubt was removed in Thomas which in turn is why Peter and Thomas were twins and soon after that event Ascention occured.

Yuri writes about the Magdalene Gospel and how the pharisees united with Martha and Magdalene and the Herodians to destroy Jesus in their final attempt to have reason return to the house of Judah, which is the old rational mind of Joseph. These were the enemies he needed to avoid and knew it by experience because they were his old ways to fame and glory as sinner (enterprising carpenter). He therefore went to the shore, along the celestial sea, and this equals meditating and contemplating all the identified riches he had accumilated thusfar (his followers inside and outside of Judaism).

Jesus was convicted by the Jews because it was Jewish law that convited him and Jewish law only. In other words, his religion that was carved as if in stone upon his own inner man.

The prophets were killed becaus it is in realization that the future (the prophets) becomes the present. Hence they have had their day in trial.

Mark is the pagan perspective and he doesn't know about the effect of the law upon the mind of Jesus and therefore just looks at the exterior man who goes through this ordeal. Notice that Pilate (rational mind of Jesus) can find nothing wrong with the man that lies beneath religion and on three occasions he defended Jesus as man in "I is see nothing wrong with the man" while the Jews looked at "Jesus the Jew."



I think I weaseled out of that one by stating that Mark was the pagan perspective and indeed Pilate had trice declared Jesus a free man as "man" . . . but not as "Jew" and he therefore handed the ego over to the the Jews and set Jesus-the-man free under Bar-Abbas (the son-of-father instead of son of Joseph-the-Jew) now soon to become the young man sitting at the righ side (brain) dressed in white because the pagans would never make the above distinction (Mk.16:5). So to Mark the whole person was crucified and therefore the "young man." I think it goes from empty in Matthew to one in Mark and two in Luke.

Amos

Well it just myth but if the caterpillar is not left behind the butterfly can't take off and this very well means that the old human nature must die before it can be raised. In other words, it must be totally transformed from objective to subjective before it can be raised. "New wine must go into new skins" etc.

I went into the "stoning to death" metaphor with Luther who was "stoned to death by Catholicsm."

John was the Catholic Gospel with a mandate. Paul did not lie because he set Barabbas free who was the insurrectionist that casued the revolt to arrive at this victory and Paul recgnized this.

The shortcut I meant was made by the children of Israel. In their metaphor they entered the promised land by parting the waters instead of walking on top of the water. Remember here that Jesus was 99% intuition in Gethsemany and therefore could walk on water (which itself is a metaphor for going by intuition). The Children of Israel could not walk on water and were [mis]led by Moses into the promised land where they did not belong because 'their time had not yet come.' This makes Moses a false prophet (much like Billy Graham) who led them into the saved sinner paradox that they could never find relief from and hence they 'burned' daily scriptures until they died nonehteless (bible passages must be prior to us by nature and not from Moses or the bible; Jn.5:39-40).

They are both wrong and right. They were right in providing the needed opposition against which revolt can be made and out of this confrontation paradise is regained as decreed by the faculty of reason (Pilate) and this is where religion (the pharisees) must lose. Of course because reason must prevail and religion must be left behind = pantheism is the end of religion and some would return to the church to become the "Church Triumphant."

He bore the sins of Joseph the whily carpenter and those were many. They were his cross and it was 'on these sins' and 'by these sins' that he was crucified.

It's a lovely story but people should drop the idea that he died for our sins because that is just wishfull thinking.

Amos

This tomb thing here is made clear in Hardy's "The Convergence of the Twain." He calls it the Emmanent Will that set the Titanic on a collision course with the iceberg, wich led to the convergence of the two hemispheres (as I suggested).

The Convergence of the Twain
By Thomas Hardy (May 14, 1912)
Lines on the loss of the "Titanic"

I

In a solitude of the sea
Deep from human vanity,
And the Pride of Life that planned her, stilly couches she.

II

Steel chambers, late the pyres
Of her salamandrine fires,
Cold currents thrid, and turn to rhythmic tidal lyres.

III

Over the mirrors meant
To glass the opulent
The sea-worm crawls - grotesque, slimed, dumb, indifferent.

IV

Jewels in joy designed
To ravish the sensuous mind
Lie lightless, all their sparkles bleared and black and blind.

V

Dim moon-eyed fishes near
Gaze at the gilded gear
And query: "What does this vaingloriousness down here?"

VI

Well: while was fashioning
This creature of cleaving wing,
The Immanent Will that stirs and urges everything

VII

Prepared a sinister mate
For her - so gaily great -
A Shape of Ice, for the time far and dissociate.

VIII

And as the smart ship grew
In stature, grace, and hue
In shadowy silent distance grew the Iceberg too.

IX

Alien they seemed to be:
No mortal eye could see
The intimate welding of their later history,

X

Or sign that they were bent
By paths coincident
On being anon twin halves of one august event,

XI

Till the Spinner of the Years
Said "Now!" And each one hears,
And consummation comes, and jars two hemispheres.


Lovely poem, rustic poet with no equal. The "salemandrine fires" is Eve, of course, who is behind the Pride of Life that planned her just as shiny as she was (aren't we all!).

As faith would have it: "alien they seem to be and no mortal eye could see" that religion as a means to the end means that while we are faith builders are we also cave hewers because a religion that leads to our own crucifixion demands while our faith led to our salvation it also becomes our tomb because it led to our death (Rom.7:10 "the commandments that should have led to life brought me death." and hence "a testator must be dead before a testament can be in force (Hebrews 9:17).



The above kind of means that if you want to get to heaven you better have not have any faith, hope, charity left because these gifts were received from the magi only to get there (and now we are into the Stoic mind).

If you are reading this Koy I would like to hear a "yes" or a "no" from you.

Koyaanisqatsi

Well, I asked for it and I got it!

You certainly don't dissappoint, my friend. Unfortunately, since we're now completely into metaphor and myth, I'll have to assail your interpretation. Always a dicey business, since poetry, by definition, can not be assailed, only appreciated .

Ok.

I'll strap myself in then for the ride .

Is this Joseph, the step-father of Jesus, or another Joseph?

Ok, I sort of see where you're going with this. To a desert nomad, the enormity of the night's sky and the fact that they are at rest from their daily chores could symbolize a time of "herding" rational thoughts; a time of existential contemplation that is interrupted by a non-rational event.

It's a stretch, but what the hay.

Ok, so the stable represents Joseph's conscious mind and any intrusion into that mind would prevent Joseph from obtaining his epiphany (the ticket for entrance into Purgatory). Therefore, the shepherds exist where? Outside of Joseph's conscious mind? They are Joseph's subconscious?

Again, a stretch, but we're already stretched so I'll go with it.

And what does the God character represent in this metaphor? The ideal human state that Joseph is attempting to attain? And what is the significance of a ten day span?

32 years after his rebirth, which would have meant that Joseph, at this point, was roughly in his fifties.

Metaphorically speaking. So, let me recap the metaphor thus far. This is the story of a man who, in his fifties perhaps sixties, has lived roughly thirty years with a spiritual rebirth (due to his anger at feeling betrayed by his chosen religion) and is only now, in his old age, coming to fully realize this rebirth and accept his destiny; i.e., his death. So the lesson to be learned is that following Judaism (orthodoxy, presumably) will not allow one to come to terms with one's inevitable death?

Wait a minute. You implied that the shepherds (the eiditic images of Jesus) were not of the conscious mind, yes? How is Herod representative of the suconscious mind of Joseph? His Judaism?

Which you said was the stable. So, in Joseph's aging mind (dying mind, no less), Herod represents Joseph's religion and Pilate represents Joseph's what? Paganism? Rejection of Judaism? Pilate--his conscious mind--is Joseph's executioner. So you're saying that Joseph's conscious mind is what kills him as a result of his rejecting Judaism.

And what does the "mechanism of faith" represent? Blind trust that one is correct in one's assumptions. Judas, the betrayer = Judaism (that's always been obvious), so, again to recap (and forgive me for constantly doing so), Joseph rejects Judaism because it didn't help him to deal with the inevitability of his own death and it was this rejection that allowed Joseph to have blind trust in his own assumptions regarding this betrayal.

I'm with you. The Jesus myth is a story about a dying old man who has come to finally reallize that the religious beliefs that were forced upon him as a younger man are non-rational and undermining his trust in his own assumptions about his existence.

Right. He is an island unto himself and he reallizes this, more or less, on his death bed.

No, wait. The upper room can't be the subconscious mind, since that was what Herod represented and Joseph rejected.

But wasn't the ego crucified with the rebirth thirty years prior? If Jesus is representative of Joseph's "destiny," then wouldn't that destiny also be indicative of a necessary destruction of the ego at the same time? One can't follow a destiny if one is still encumbered by an ego.

Well, again you're mixing your metaphor. The subconscious mind is Herod (i.e., Judaism, i.e., false beliefs), which Joseph rejects due to the betrayal of his religion as any kind of substantive guide at the end of his life.

A "failed" divine comedy eh? Nice.

Well, actually, it's Psalms, which, if true, tends to deflate your metaphor, unless it was meant to be ironic. A dying old man who has rejected his religion as useless and embraced his own assumptions about his existence ("God" the idealized human) would not then quote it upon his death, yes?

I would disagree in light of your metaphor. By saying "father into thy hands I commit my spirit," Joseph's destiny would here be the melding of his split personalities; the reborn "child" fully accepting (upon death) his destiny to die, thereby relinquishing his existence back to the father (i.e., Joseph; i.e., back to himself). Joseph has rejected religious dogma as useless and embarked (perhaps unwittingly) on his destiny to finally--after a long and presumably painfilled if not pain[/i]ful[/i] life--to accept his own assumptions about his existence; assumptions that entail each individual being the idealized human (i.e., their own God).

Thus the myth of Jesus is actually the story of an old man re-acquiring the wisdom he had from birth, but which got perverted by cult influence and, if I properly extend and apply your metaphor, is teaching the rejection of religious beliefs in favor of intuitive self-knowledge. The Gnostics would agree .

Well, being the Roman propagandist he no doubt was, I would wholehearedly agree.

Amos

I came across a passage the other day that said something like "every scribe and pharisee must be removed" (I forgot where and since I am not a bible reader it is not easy for me to find). This means that all must be rationalized before ascension can take place. Also, the temple was his religion and this now means that Jesus-nee-Joseph was 46 at the time this happended because it took 46 years to built this temple (Jn.3:20).

One Joseph and Jesus was just the reborn Joseph. Joseph here was in the depths of dispair and was "beyond theology" (Allan Watt's metaphor) wherefore the shepherds were out that night. These shepherds represent his eidetic images, or strongholds and therefore helpers in life and they were herding his rational thoughts outside his conscious mind =equals "beyond theology." Do you see the image here?

Again, Joseph was just "beyond reason" to show that if our faculty of reason was what banned us from Eden our abandonment of this faculty of reason will be the necessary condition to regain our entrance back into Eden.

This same Joseph returned later to the body of Jesus etc. He may be identified slightly different but that is only to show that his outlook on life had changed.

It is a very nice metaphor, I think.

It is not really a stretch and if I can pile the rest of the story on top of it before it can make sense it is a very reasonable proposition. Let's be honest and recognize that we, some, or all of us get born again all the time and if we must follow the footsteps of Jesus to get to heaven there is not much choice left for us.

Yes the stable is empty and it is a stable to identify it as empty (no room at the Inn to indicate pure isolation from the rational world). The shepherds remain outside to indicate that Joseph remained beyond theology for the extended period of 10 days. (Pasternak's "Christmas Star" summerizes this but the detailed effect is clear in the novel, someplace but I forgot where -- so this is no help to you either).

No, not his subconscious mind. Just vacant and beyond reason = heart of darkness but without theology and therefore beyond the heart of darkness.

We are created in the image of God and if only realization is required for us to become God the rebirth of Joseph is the first step towards realization. It is just stacked with metaphors to descibe the intricate details of this event . . . which is an event if realization is real.

It is not my suggestion that Joseph is attempting anything. The event is happening to Joseph and to him it probable came across like he was being over-run by a quantum mechanics train with lights flashing all over the place. In Catholicism this is called the Beatific Vision. He just doesn't know and doesn't think anything because he is beyond wit for the entire period of ten days.

The 10 day period is just my conclusion drawn from different allegories I found in literature but is evidence that it was not just a simple "spur of the moment" rebirth event based on human desire (carnal in origen = equals from below, thanks Dr. X).

I just told you above, Joseph was 46 at about this time which is when the temple (religion) was destroyed in his own mind. Hence his anger with the pharisees and the abandonment of Judaism as a religion to follow =freedom from the old law.

46 I just suggested. According to Erikson in "Adulthood," which is a study of comparative religion around the world, the age is 38-42. His conclusion was that the sort of ripe adulthood he was looking for does not exist in the Western world. In the bible this mature adulthood is like "Christhood" and so this does not say much for Christianity today.

Purgatory takes 42 months in Rev.13. The first beast that came out of the sea was the product of Catholic rebirth and the second beast that worshipped the first beast was the protestant rebirth method. The 7 heads were the capital sins/cardinal virtues, the victory over sin were the 10 diadem studded horns etc.

He will die to his persona only and that will be his first death. After this he takes up residence in his subconscious mind (upper room) where he recalls his idetic images (apostles) into the subconscious mind and from there reigns surpreme with insight and authority (he actually calls Mary up there who takes charge of his destiny and he, reason, is just along for the ride.

When he places Mary in charge in the upper room he is in the Thousand Year Reign because she is from the subconscious mind (where she in charge of our genetic make-up) and can therefore tell us why we do the things we do.

When you have to make things right before you die you are a little too late. I am talking mid-life here or menopauze. From "MENO" which means "I remain" as in "I become eternal."

Eiditic images are retained in the subconscious mind because we have grounded them there with reality (tied down) but they are rational in origin. In other words, they are ours because we have created them but are intuit to us through our insight into their nature and origen.

Herod was the combined force that placed our intuit mind opposite to our conscious mind. In the end Pilate was the ruler of our conscious mind and Herod was the ruler of our subconscious mind. Hardy calls him the Immanent Will . . . but that must also have an origen and here this origen is called Herod or Gabriel by proxy under God ( I am not sure).

Joseph's Judaism is subjugated under Herod just as Jesus the Jew was tried by Pilate (reason)

At one time is was bare like the stable (the stable represents a temporary state of mind).

Joseph is not ageing nor is he dying and fear of death is not part of this because that would be the wrong motive and never lead to illumination (no cowards in heaven). It is a mid-life event.

Judaism kills the ego. The sins of Joseph drove him into a more or less permanent, or at least persistent or recurring melancholic state of mind that at one time was called "involutional melancholia." These sins became the cross of Jesus whereopen the ego of Joseph was crucified under the name of Jesus the Jew (all is metaphor in the Gospels) and the faculty of reason was the cause of this when the last pharisee lost his stronghold in the Garden of Gethsemany which itself is the equivalent of the last bitter end of rational existence as human being.

Faith is our learned behavior according to tradition and is also based on our religious values that is incarnate upon us. They are intuit to us because our intuition is the memory of our soul and therefore Zachariah and Elizabeth gave birth to John who was from the netherworld which is our subconscious mind, here the subconscious mind of Joseph. John was therefore born of old parents. In this sense prepared John the way for Jesus because the intuit mind of Joseph showed Jesus what to do and at least did not interfere. John was beheaded to show that liberty was extended to the conscious mind so it could work out its own salvation in fear and trembling.

Mid-life. Let me Romans 7:9 here that when sin came to life I died.

But Herod came down to the conscious mind to see who Jesus was and was eager to surrender his authority to him.

To resolve the conflict between these two minds is the aim of the story and that is what is about to happen. First Herod and Pilate became friends (at one time they were enemies) and now Jesus becomes King.

****I am rushing through this and I am gone for the afternoon but will return tonight.*****

Amos

No. The thirty years is your idea. Between rebirth and crucifixion is when we work out our salvation and this should take no more then 42 months in Rev.13 or "a year and two and a half more" (Rev.12:14) or 42 months (Rev.11:2) or "1242 days (?) elsewhere but I forgot where. But give it 4 years, who cares and this is probably not the same for everybody. So call him 50 at the most if his rebirth was at 46 (in John 2:20 where he first 'cleansed' the temple just after rebirth).

And you are correct, humans are not in charge of their destiny while they are divided in their own mind between their Man (or God) identity and their ego identity. After the crucifixion of the human identity the Christ identity is in charge.

I don't think so. Herod is not just Judaism. Judas is Judaism.

Herod is the collective voice of the offspring of woman (Immanent will) and Pilate is the collective voice of the offspring of Eve (rational will). Woman is subconscious and Eve is conscious mind. These were placed at emnity with each other after the fall (see Gen.3:15) and this is what motivated Joseph the Jew (emnity was the cause of his desire and the loss of motivation should be a cause of alarm for Herod).

A side issue here:
Herod was aware that Joseph's desire diminished (when the magi first learned about the star) and was concerned that a child was born from Eve (conscious mind, Magdalene or below) instead of woman (subconscious, Mary or above).

Yes I like them, Macbeth is my favorite and Titus Andronicus is another one. Since there was nothing divine about such a tragedy they are named after Seneca . . . who was divine to be able to write them.(in my opinion . . . and so was Shakespeare, of course).

I understand your point but he is a long ways from death and is just getting into heaven. He's got at least 30 super good years to go and I think he is off to Patmos where he writes the Gospels and the Revelations. Don't forget here that he is all the apostles in one mind.

Jesus here is the empty ego speaking and Jesus the reborn son of man who has been set free under the name Bar-abbas. It's all drama, sir, and the Passion Play is very famous. I love it and you should see all the tears flowing in Oberammergau . . . or else just go to a Palm sunday mass and you'll see how well they do.

The ego is good, and fun, and served him well, as does yours, and mine, and we are all proud of it because that is who we are . . and we go by it, and lean on it, as we must . . . for we have not much else to go by, or lean on, unless we have a better half that is only better until we are forced to make the ultimate choice in life which regard to who we really are.

I am sure it was not easy for him, but I don't really know and must leave it at that.

Nah heck no. Get it out of your head that atheism is a worthy pursuit.

Joseph has no equal and he became God. He told us that we can do the same and showed us how to do it in our life.

Not quite. It is a story about a middle aged man who went through metamorphosis. In this event the divide between his conscious and subconscious mind was torn, or lifted, in the Beatific Vision. From here he gradually moved from "inside his cave" into the "full exposure of light" and that is how he became omniscient (noetic vision). In our myth this full light was called the celestial sea and means the same thing.

To achieve this state of mind a good religion is needed because modern man is far too uploaded with rational thoughts to offset the balance of power so the subconscious mind can overthrow the conscious mind. Primal man could do this and that was good for him. It would be good for us too but without a well focussed religion it is no longer possible.

Yes he re-acquired the wisdom he had but without this event he would have never know it all. It is true that intuition is based on the memory of our soul but the ability to rationalize our soul is not the same as haphazardly going by our gut feeling. Mary is woman who was taken from man. This makes her the blueprint of man and therefore the seat of wisdom needed to change the blueprint for the next generation. For Mary to be his bride suggests a close intimacy with his own genetic make-up and maybe that is why there is no pain or sickness in heaven.

In Rev. the Alpha is the soul and between the Alpha and Omega are the contributions made by the conscious mind. These were the apostles raised into the upper room and disciples tied down there ("tied in heaven").