Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 05-05-2009, 06:13 AM

'In the year AD 150, Justin Martyr records that certain Jews in his day had been chosen and ordained by the leadership to spread the story that the disciples had stolen the body, which is precisely what Matthew had earlier claimed (28:13-15)'

So the tomb must have been empty, because in 150 AD some Jews had been told to say that the disciples had stolen the body.

http://www.bethinking.org/bible-jesu...f-an-enemy.htm

You have to wonder at the way Christians never seem to get anybody to peer-review their articles before sceptics get to chew on them.

Let me see. 150 AD. 120 years after the alleged empty tomb. How could this be anything other than one religious group automatically gainsyaing the claims of another religious group?

And even if it were not, it no more proves there was an empty tomb than people are proving that levitation really happened when they say that photos of levitating swamis are fake.

Still, Licona is touted as a really good apologist, so no wonder his arguments are so bad.

Ben C Smith · 05-05-2009, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

'In the year AD 150, Justin Martyr records that certain Jews in his day had been chosen and ordained by the leadership to spread the story that the disciples had stolen the body, which is precisely what Matthew had earlier claimed (28:13-15)'

So the tomb must have been empty, because in 150 AD some Jews had been told to say that the disciples had stolen the body.

Tertullian makes a similar claim (available on one of my web pages).

For my money, both Justin and Tertullian are probably repeating this Jewish accusation from the gospel of Matthew, not necessarily from having personally heard the accusation from Jewish contemporaries. If this is so, then it is all the more unlikely that Justin (and Tertullian) can be leveraged as support for the empty tomb. It is all down to the gospel of Matthew.

Ben.

show_no_mercy · 05-05-2009, 06:34 AM

What's wrong with these people's thinking ability? Justin Martyr was aware of gMatthew... so one would think that this is where he got the story of the stolen body from!

Maybe they're confused because Justin never writes "according to Matthew" because he only quotes from "Memoirs"? But no one writes "according to Matthew" until after Irenaeus.

arnoldo · 05-05-2009, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

'In the year AD 150, Justin Martyr records that certain Jews in his day had been chosen and ordained by the leadership to spread the story that the disciples had stolen the body, which is precisely what Matthew had earlier claimed (28:13-15)'

So the tomb must have been empty, because in 150 AD some Jews had been told to say that the disciples had stolen the body.

Tertullian makes a similar claim (available on one of my web pages).

For my money, both Justin and Tertullian are probably repeating this Jewish accusation from the gospel of Matthew, not necessarily from having personally heard the accusation from Jewish contemporaries. If this is so, then it is all the more unlikely that Justin (and Tertullian) can be leveraged as support for the empty tomb. It is all down to the gospel of Matthew.

Ben.

More importantly it bears witness for the possible dating of Matthew in the first century (and no later than 150 A.D.) The following is an excerpt from Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho;

Quote:

CHAPTER CVII -- THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST DID NOT CONVERT THE JEWS. BUT THROUGH THE WHOLE WORLD THEY HAVE SENT MEN TO ACCUSE CHRIST.

"And though all the men of your nation knew the incidents in the life of Jonah, and though Christ said amongst you that He would give the sign of Jonah, exhorting you to repent of your wicked deeds at least after He rose again from the dead, and to mourn before God as did the Ninevites, in order that your nation and city might not be taken and destroyed, as they have been destroyed; yet you not only have not repented, after you learned that He rose from the dead, but, as I said before you have sent chosen and ordained men throughout all the world to proclaim that a godless and lawless heresy had sprung from one Jesus, a Galilaean deceiver, whom we crucified, but his disciples stole him by night from the tomb, where he was laid when unfastened from the cross, and now deceive men by asserting that he has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven. Moreover, you accuse Him of having taught those godless, lawless, and unholy doctrines which you mention to the condemnation of those who confess Him to be Christ, and a Teacher from and Son of God. Besides this, even when your city is captured, and your land ravaged, you do not repent, but dare to utter imprecations on Him and all who believe in Him. Yet we do not hate you or those who, by your means, have conceived such prejudices against us; but we pray that even now all of you may repent and obtain mercy from God, the compassionate and long-suffering Father of all.

CHAPTER CIX -- THE CONVERSION OF THE GENTILES HAS BEEN PREDICTED BY MICAH.

"But that the Gentiles would repent of the evil in which they led erring lives, when they heard the doctrine preached by His apostles from Jerusalem, and which they learned through them, suffer me to show you by quoting a short statement from the prophecy of Micah, one of the twelve [minor prophets]. This is as follows: 'And in the last days the mountain of the Lord shall be manifest, established on the top of the mountains; it shall be exalted above the hills, arid people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall go, and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and they shall enlighten us in His way, and we shall walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among many peoples, and shall rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into sickles: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. And each man shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree; and there shall be none to terrify: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it. For all people will walk in the name of their gods; but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will assemble her that is afflicted, and gather her that is driven out, and whom I had plagued; and I shall make her that is afflicted a remnant, and her that is oppressed a strong nation. And the Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from henceforth, and even for ever.' "

CHAPTER CX -- A PORTION OF THE PROPHECY ALREADY FULFILLED IN THE CHRISTIANS: THE REST SHALL BE FULFILLED AT THE SECOND ADVENT.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...guetrypho.html

aa5874 · 05-05-2009, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

'In the year AD 150, Justin Martyr records that certain Jews in his day had been chosen and ordained by the leadership to spread the story that the disciples had stolen the body, which is precisely what Matthew had earlier claimed (28:13-15)'

So the tomb must have been empty, because in 150 AD some Jews had been told to say that the disciples had stolen the body.

But, the author of Matthew has produced a most idiotic story.

In Matthew 28.13-15, it is claimed that it is commonly reported among the Jews that the disciples stole the body of Jesus up to the time of the authorship of gMatthew.

So, basically the Jews do not believe at all that Jesus have resurrected.

The author has destroyed his own resurrection story.

The author has placed the resurrected Jesus up in a mountain with the disciples, completely hidden or unknown to the people at ground zero.

The resurrection is bunk. Nobody saw Jesus in a resurrected state.

Now when the disciples come down from the mountain what are they going to tell the people?

"Jesus resurrected and ascended through the clouds."

What are the people going to tell the disciples?

" You guys stole the body of Jesus and buried him up in the mountains. And if you guys say he ascended, you just mean you all ascended up to the top of the mountain with his stolen body where there were some low lying clouds."

The author has just messed up his resurrection story, he has no non-apologetic witnesses.

And 120 years later or about, the stolen body story is still believed, based on Justin Martyr.

Even "Paul's" gospel has been destroyed when it is claimed the disciples stole the body of Jesus.

1Co 15:17 -

Quote:

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Minimalist · 05-05-2009, 09:51 AM

Er, "Matthew" also has this pile of bunkum. Only 'believers' would accept anything he writes as factual!

Quote:

And behold,(A) the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And(B) the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of(C) the saints(D) who had fallen asleep were raised, 53and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into(E) the holy city and appeared to many.

Funny how no one who saw this felt compelled to make a note of it!

show_no_mercy · 05-05-2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Er, "Matthew" also has this pile of bunkum. Only 'believers' would accept anything he writes as factual!

Quote:

And behold,(A) the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And(B) the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of(C) the saints(D) who had fallen asleep were raised, 53and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into(E) the holy city and appeared to many.

Funny how no one who saw this felt compelled to make a note of it!

I don't see how anyone can glean any "facts" from works that contain so many obvious fictions, literary allegories, deus ex machinas (ironically), and exaggerations that aren't corroborated by any other outside sources. Why do people consider the gospels historically reliable in any way?

aa5874 · 05-05-2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

I don't see how anyone can glean any "facts" from works that contain so many obvious fictions, literary allegories, deus ex machinas (ironically), and exaggerations that aren't corroborated by any other outside sources. Why do people consider the gospels historically reliable in any way?

But, how did blatant fiction become sacred scripture and canonised?

It is clear that the stolen body story has destroyed the resurrection.

Minimalist · 05-05-2009, 12:38 PM

Quote:

But, how did blatant fiction become sacred scripture and canonised?

Because they killed people who objected. It is an effective technique.

mountainman · 05-05-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Let me see. 150 AD. 120 years after the alleged empty tomb. How could this be anything other than one religious group automatically gainsyaing the claims of another religious group?

What about the data furnished by the
author of the Gospel of Peter .......

they saw again three men come out of the sepulchre,
and two of them sustaining the other (lit. the one),
and a cross following, after them.

And of the two they saw that their heads reached unto heaven,
but of him that was led by them that it overpassed the heavens.
And they heard a voice out of the heavens saying:

Hast thou preached unto them that sleep?

And an answer was heard from the cross, saying:

"Yea."!

I'd say the apocryphal author of the gPeter
was being very skeptical of the empty tomb
and took it into his own hands to create a
far more popular fictitious account.

We need to understand that the party who
wrote the canonical books was not the same
party who wrote the non-canonical books.
The latter is an utter mimicry of the former.

Heretics were killed for being mimics.
Tradition demanded the canon be true.
The authorship of, and the secreting or hiding of
Unauthorised fictions about Jesus were
punishable by death.

05-05-2009, 06:13 AM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Mike Licona proves there was an empty tomb 'In the year AD 150, Justin Martyr records that certain Jews in his day had been chosen and ordained by the leadership to spread the story that the disciples had stolen the body, which is precisely what Matthew had earlier claimed (28:13-15)' So the tomb must have been empty, because in 150 AD some Jews had been told to say that the disciples had stolen the body. http://www.bethinking.org/bible-jesu...f-an-enemy.htm You have to wonder at the way Christians never seem to get anybody to peer-review their articles before sceptics get to chew on them. Let me see. 150 AD. 120 years after the alleged empty tomb. How could this be anything other than one religious group automatically gainsyaing the claims of another religious group? And even if it were not, it no more proves there was an empty tomb than people are proving that levitation really happened when they say that photos of levitating swamis are fake. Still, Licona is touted as a really good apologist, so no wonder his arguments are so bad.

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05-05-2009, 06:34 AM	#3
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	What's wrong with these people's thinking ability? Justin Martyr was aware of gMatthew... so one would think that this is where he got the story of the stolen body from! Maybe they're confused because Justin never writes "according to Matthew" because he only quotes from "Memoirs"? But no one writes "according to Matthew" until after Irenaeus.

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