Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hinduwoman · 03-08-2012, 10:24 PM

Noticed that Purim this year is coinciding with Holi, Hindu spring festival of colours.

I know Purim is supposed to be celebrate Jews' deliverance in Persian empire, but the story of Esther was later made up.

So I am wondering if there was a Spring festival which the Jews adapted as a sign of God's favour.

J-D · 03-08-2012, 10:32 PM

It's an interesting question; all I can say for certain is that Passover is clearly and explicitly a spring festival, and it's a month after Purim. But that doesn't exclude the possibility that at some unknown time and in some unknown place Jews encountered another spring festival at a different time and assimilated it as well.

sotto voce · 03-09-2012, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hinduwoman

Noticed that Purim this year is coinciding with Holi, Hindu spring festival of colours.

How does that work in Australia?

andrewcriddle · 03-10-2012, 12:53 AM

magic & religion by lang may possibly be of interest.

It is an old book and argues that Purim is probably not based on a pagan spring festival. However it provides a survey of the 19th century debate.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 03-10-2012, 01:02 AM

they don't even know what the word for Purim means

Toto · 03-10-2012, 05:47 PM

Aociety of Humanistic Judaism

Quote:

On one level, the Purim story represents the annual struggle to end the harsh reign of winter. The original characters appear to have been Babylonian gods: Ishtar, the goddess of fertility; Marduk, the chief guardian of the heavens; and Haman, the underworld devil. Ishtar and Haman, life and death, vie with each other for supremacy. Ishtar triumphs; spring returns; and life is renewed. Yahveh, the Hebrew God, played no part in the celebration, which was filled with theatrical renditions of the contest. Noisemaking and masquerading were necessary to trick the evil gods and to aid the good ones. Sexual orgies promoted fertility. Merriment was the order of the day.

The megilla, or biblical Book of Esther, replaced Ishtar and Marduk with Jewish mortals (Esther and Mordecai); Haman became a Persian "devil." The holiday's name, "Purim," meaning "lots" or "dice," is meant to remind us of how the evil character Haman drew lots to determine the fate of the Jews of Persia. According to the Book of Esther, were it not for the goodness and intervention of Esther and her uncle Mordecai in the court of King Ahasuerus, the Jews certainly would have been exterminated by the king's vizier Haman. Purim became the joyous celebration of an epic Jewish victory over anti-Semitism and threatened annihilation — an enactment of the fantasies of centuries of persecuted Jews.

More at the link.

semiopen · 03-12-2012, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Is the Society of Humanistic Judaism the final arbiter of the history of the Jewish religion? Did they go back in time to Persia to find out where the names of Mordechai and Esther came from? Such oversimplifications are as we say in Yiddish, "nisht zu gleyben" ("incredible").

I agree that humanistic Jews might be bigger idiots than Orthodox ones, but it's close and debatable.

Esther and Mordecai visually and strikingly match up to Ishtar and Marduk, Mardachya and Hester is obscure. Not to say it couldn't be right, but it seems unlikely.

Ironically Toto's hero, Gil Student, defends the historicity of Purim

The Historicity of Megillat Esther

Quote:

Recently, the historicity of the biblical book of Esther - whether the book is historically true - has been called into question an a most bold and audacious manner. Because the challenger writes with such overstated confidence in this matter, I have been easily convinced to take up my pen once again and demonstrate how thinly substantiated his claim is.

This is all too deep for me, Pur (lot) is an Assyrian word but most references mention it is Babylonian/Persian which might be true, but this is misleading.

The Origins of Purim

Quote:

Finally, we get to the etymology of the word “Purim.” The reason given in the Megillah for the name “Purim” is quite far-fetched. It is a reference to an insignificant detail of the story, the drawing of lots, and it’s referred to by a widely unknown term. So much so, that the writer of the Megillah assumed the readers would not be aware of this word, hence the inline translation: “Hipil pur, hu hagoral.” So this is unlikely to be the real reason it was called “Purim.”

But there is another meaning to the word, one that is more relevant . The root of the word Purim is the Hebrew word “hafarah,” which we might translate as disruption or annulment. The Hebrew words “yemei ha-Purim,” the days of Purim, translate directly to “the days of annulment.” Purim was called “the Annulment Festival” because that’s what it was: a cancelled Passover.

In Toto's article -

Quote:

Uncomfortable with Purim but faced with a festival that the people would not abandon, the rabbinic leaders found a way to suit it to their purposes. On the thirteenth of Adar, the day before Purim, Jews celebrated Nicanor's Day, commemorating a major Maccabean victory over a Greek general named Nicanor. The rabbis, to minimize the influence of their rivals, the Maccabees, turned Nicanor's Day into the Fast of Esther

This seems questionable to me for technical reasons; but Nicanor Day is hugely important - Rabbi Student totally ignores this.

Duvduv · 03-12-2012, 07:33 AM

Shucks, the advocates of the Humanistic Judaism movement are so tolerant and patient. They could NEVER have any fantasies at all. After all, they have purified their intellectual powers more than even Guatama Buddha could have ever hoped to...It violates their "halacha" to even conceive of the possibility that the names Marduk and Ishtar were derived from Mordechai and Esther rather than the other way around.
Besides, Mordechai was only his official name. Among the Jews he was known as Pesachya, and also Balshon because of his knowledge of many languages. Esther was known also (in the Scroll of Esther itself) as Hadassah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Aociety of Humanistic Judaism

Quote:

On one level, the Purim story represents the annual struggle to end the harsh reign of winter. The original characters appear to have been Babylonian gods: Ishtar, the goddess of fertility; Marduk, the chief guardian of the heavens; and Haman, the underworld devil. Ishtar and Haman, life and death, vie with each other for supremacy. Ishtar triumphs; spring returns; and life is renewed. Yahveh, the Hebrew God, played no part in the celebration, which was filled with theatrical renditions of the contest. Noisemaking and masquerading were necessary to trick the evil gods and to aid the good ones. Sexual orgies promoted fertility. Merriment was the order of the day.

The megilla, or biblical Book of Esther, replaced Ishtar and Marduk with Jewish mortals (Esther and Mordecai); Haman became a Persian "devil." The holiday's name, "Purim," meaning "lots" or "dice," is meant to remind us of how the evil character Haman drew lots to determine the fate of the Jews of Persia. According to the Book of Esther, were it not for the goodness and intervention of Esther and her uncle Mordecai in the court of King Ahasuerus, the Jews certainly would have been exterminated by the king's vizier Haman. Purim became the joyous celebration of an epic Jewish victory over anti-Semitism and threatened annihilation — an enactment of the fantasies of centuries of persecuted Jews.

03-08-2012, 10:24 PM	#1
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	WAs Purim a spring festival? Noticed that Purim this year is coinciding with Holi, Hindu spring festival of colours. I know Purim is supposed to be celebrate Jews' deliverance in Persian empire, but the story of Esther was later made up. So I am wondering if there was a Spring festival which the Jews adapted as a sign of God's favour.

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03-08-2012, 10:32 PM	#2
J-D Moderator - General Religious Discussions Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New South Wales Posts: 27,330	It's an interesting question; all I can say for certain is that Passover is clearly and explicitly a spring festival, and it's a month after Purim. But that doesn't exclude the possibility that at some unknown time and in some unknown place Jews encountered another spring festival at a different time and assimilated it as well.

03-10-2012, 12:53 AM	#4
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	magic & religion by lang may possibly be of interest. It is an old book and argues that Purim is probably not based on a pagan spring festival. However it provides a survey of the 19th century debate. Andrew Criddle

03-10-2012, 01:02 AM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	they don't even know what the word for Purim means

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