rhutchin

I have never seen anyone point to any logical holes in the argument. Regardless, it has been argued elsewhere but you could always start a new thread and actually identify a hole in the argument.

Mageth

rhutchin, Pascal's Wager wasn't even posed as a logical argument.

I find it hard to believe that you have "never seen anyone point to any logical holes in the argument." Many criticisms of Pascal's Wager have been posed, starting not long after he suggested it.

A notable logical flaw with Pascal's formulation of the Wager is that it posits a false dilemma:

1. a benevolent god exists and punishes or rewards according to one's belief, or
2. a benevolent god does not exist.

That, in and of itself, is enough of a hole to sink the Wager.

That's all I'll say about it here. Your expression of ignorance of the many refutations of the Wager indicates that you need to do some reading-up before any further discussion of the subject. I'd suggest you review this information:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ism/wager.html

show_no_mercy

Saved from what? Where in the Hebrew bible does it say that humans have to be saved from Adam's curse (i.e. death)?

This concept of being "saved" in this manner is totally foreign to the Hebrew bible. It's an invention of Christians.

bacht

Here's some pre-NT speculation about death:

Do not invite death by the error of your life,
nor bring on destruction by the works of your hands;
because God did not make death,
and he does not delight in the death of the living.
For he created all things that they might exist,
and the generative forces of the world are wholesome,
and there is no destructive poison in them;
and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.
For righteousness is immortal.
But ungodly men by their words and deeds summoned death;
considering him a friend, they pined away,
and they made a covenant with him,
because they are fit to belong to his party.

Wisdom of Solomon 1.12-16

Mageth

So, do your actions determine whether you are allowed to enter heaven or not? The last sentence seems to contradict this assertion, making it appear that you are "saved" by simply seeking God's mercy regardless of any other actions.

show_no_mercy

Well I specifically pointed out the Hebrew bible and not the apocrypha because later writings were influenced by Greek culture. There's quite a bit of other apocrypha that talks about Adam's curse.

rhutchin

Which Paul succinctly said in Romans 6:23--

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

rhutchin

That's basically it. Those who sin will not be able to enter heaven (with one exception).

The one exception.

Johnny Skeptic

Not according to Calvinism. According to Calvinism, the elect are not able to resist God, meaning that salvation is God's choice, not man's choice. Seeking God's mercy would not have any affect on who God saves. Under Calvinism, no one has any idea whether or not they are saved.

You endorse Pascal's Wager, but it is incompatible with Calvinism. You have threatened skeptics on many occasions by claiming that God will punish them, but under Calvinism, threats are irrelevant since salvation is God's choice, not man's choice. If a skeptic named John Smith refuses to accept God, he is not at risk because risk implies choice. Under Calvinism, choice is irrelevant.

Consider the following from a Calvinist website:

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

That obviously disagrees with your comment "A person does not have to do anything to be saved except seek God's mercy." As the website says, "God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual." That also means that God does not base His election on anything that humans do.

rhutchin

I don't see a problem. Both are true statements. Perhaps, your grasp of Calvinism is lacking.