Freethought & Rationalism Archive

AtheistGamer · 11-01-2009, 05:37 PM

Hey there everyone. I have a christian trying to tell me that the Toledot Jesu is a jewish text that goes back to the 2nd century C.E. He also tells me that the Toledot affirms that there was an empty tomb. The empty tomb bussiness is nonsense because the Toledot doesn't say anything about a tomb. It only talks about a grave (just like Paul). But anyway I have wikipedia saying that our earliest form of the Toledot is from the 4th century and that it goes back orally to the 2nd century.

Other web sites say it is from the 6th century, and some say it's from the middle ages. So when the hell was this first written or passed down? Thanks.

Toto · 11-01-2009, 06:51 PM

Check the references in this thread

It is very difficult to date Jewish texts.

Toto · 11-01-2009, 07:10 PM

This webpage dates the manuscript to the 14th century, and the traditions to the 6th century.

The whole tale is Jewish anti-Christian polemic which incorporates themes from the gospels and the apocrypha, including the missing body - which it ascribed to the gardner moving the body:

Quote:

On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied. Diligent search was made and he was not found in the grave where he had been buried. A gardener had taken him from the grave and had brought him into his garden and buried him in the sand over which the waters flowed into the garden.

Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu's followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, "This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven." Realizing that Yeshu was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked the followers but praised the Sages.

Whether it was a tomb or grave is a mere detail. Christian apologists can try to argue that this is proof of the early tradition of the empty tomb, because it shows a Jewish attempt to explain away a missing body.

But the story seems more of a reaction to the story of the empty tomb, as well as the virgin birth and the stories of Jesus making clay birds that could fly.

There is more on that here and in the XTalk2 thread referenced in the earlier thread.

AtheistGamer · 11-01-2009, 10:37 PM

Thanks Toto. I noticed that same site when I googled Toledot Jesu. It's third or fourth on the google searches.

Toto · 11-02-2009, 12:12 AM

The wiki talk page is interesting. The claim in the main article "The materials contained in the books circulated orally (difficult to trace, but perhaps no earlier than the 2nd century)" creates the implication that the material could go back to the 2nd century. But there is no reason to think this, and no sources are given.

AtheistGamer · 11-02-2009, 10:32 AM

Yeah I noticed that too. Nobody seems to be able to give any good arguments as to why this 4th century document would go back to the 2nd century. Honestly I think it's just like the "oral traditions" which are found within the gospels (one of those traditions that apologists somehow instinctivly know about but cannot back up with reason).

andrewcriddle · 11-03-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtheistGamer

Yeah I noticed that too. Nobody seems to be able to give any good arguments as to why this 4th century document would go back to the 2nd century. Honestly I think it's just like the "oral traditions" which are found within the gospels (one of those traditions that apologists somehow instinctivly know about but cannot back up with reason).

The main reason for thinking it might in some form go back to the 2nd century is the similarities between the Toledot and Jewish traditions about Jesus recorded by Celsus the 2nd century opponent of Christianity. eg Jesus as the son of Panthera/Pandera.

Andrew Criddle

11-01-2009, 05:37 PM	#1
AtheistGamer Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Central Iowa Posts: 128	Dating the Toledot Jesu? Hey there everyone. I have a christian trying to tell me that the Toledot Jesu is a jewish text that goes back to the 2nd century C.E. He also tells me that the Toledot affirms that there was an empty tomb. The empty tomb bussiness is nonsense because the Toledot doesn't say anything about a tomb. It only talks about a grave (just like Paul). But anyway I have wikipedia saying that our earliest form of the Toledot is from the 4th century and that it goes back orally to the 2nd century. Other web sites say it is from the 6th century, and some say it's from the middle ages. So when the hell was this first written or passed down? Thanks.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-01-2009, 06:51 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Check the references in this thread It is very difficult to date Jewish texts.

11-01-2009, 10:37 PM	#4
AtheistGamer Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Central Iowa Posts: 128	Thanks Toto. I noticed that same site when I googled Toledot Jesu. It's third or fourth on the google searches.

11-02-2009, 12:12 AM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The wiki talk page is interesting. The claim in the main article "The materials contained in the books circulated orally (difficult to trace, but perhaps no earlier than the 2nd century)" creates the implication that the material could go back to the 2nd century. But there is no reason to think this, and no sources are given.

11-02-2009, 10:32 AM	#6
AtheistGamer Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Central Iowa Posts: 128	Yeah I noticed that too. Nobody seems to be able to give any good arguments as to why this 4th century document would go back to the 2nd century. Honestly I think it's just like the "oral traditions" which are found within the gospels (one of those traditions that apologists somehow instinctivly know about but cannot back up with reason).

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.