T. Lane

Hi all

Sometimes Christians say that they are no longer bound by the "old covenant" ie Old Testament Law because after Jesus they are now under the "new covenant."

What is the basis for this claim? Is there a particular biblical verse, or is this the result of some theological interpretation?

I'm involved in a debate on another forum, and this has come up. I would apprectiate any help anyone can give me on this topic. Thanks!

John Kesler

There are various NT passages which teach that the old covenant was abolished by the death of Jesus and replaced with a new covenant. One such passage is Hebrews 8:6-8:

See also Colossians 2:13-16; Galatians 3:23-25; Romans 7:1-6; Hebrews 9:15-17; Hebrews 10:9 ff.

A mistake that some skeptics make is to accuse Christians of inconsistency if the latter don't keep the sabbath, abstain from "unclean" meats, avoid mixed fabrics, etc. There is, however, an inconsistency, which was mentioned by Earl Doherty in this post:

Kharakov

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. "
Matthew 5:17-18

I. C. Unicorns

Which is why the writer of John slipped this little chestnut in:

John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

ball is in your court.

T. Lane

Thanks for the verses, John. That answered one question--but it appears that Jesus never says--or is never made to say--explicitly that believers are free from the old law. In fact, Mat:5 17-18 seems to have Jesus saying the exact opposite--but then there is that final phrase "until everything is accomplished."

So I guess I'm still not really clear what principle Christians use to decide which law is applicable--if Leviticus' admonishments against homosexuality are applicable, why not those against cutting hair, or wearing mixed-fiber clothing? Is it because homosexuality is explicitly forbidden in the NT, that this part of the "old law" remains in force? (I'm working from memory here; can't remember where in the NT this admonition might be, but I think its in some of Paul's writings.)

Thanks for the help,
T.

Kharakov

That statement could refer to any number of things, from Jesus's trials and tribulations on earth to a roast turkey that he had baking in another dimension.

Before you get overly excited, reread this quote from Matthew chapter 5 (especially the part in italics):
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Now, ask yourself this: Did heaven and earth disappear?

Kharakov

The same thing most who call themselves Christian use to decide what bible passages mean: personal preference.
Aren't these laws specifically for the Jews?

I'd think it was because males were generally more aggressive in their pursuit of sexual satisfaction than females. This made the straight guys want to make homoness "a sin" so they don't end up drunk and taken advantage of. I can't really complain to much about the benefits of being able to go to a bar without other dudes hitting on me. Although, sometimes gay people do hit on me. It's very annoying to hang out with an unattractive person who keeps trying to get in your pants.

.......

I'll tell you about my one friend. Before the dude starting coming on to me all the time, he was a nice person to talk to. He was a friend I could talk to about stuff that was on my mind, he would talk about his life, whatever. I still can talk to him about serious stuff every once in a while, but I can't have a light hearted conversation (with him) without him flirting, so I avoid talking to him, for the most part. I don't want to bring him around my other friends, because he would hit on them and make them uncomfortable. The dude is just creepy. He even looks creepy. Lol. It's almost like he is a living example of creepiness. Anyway, I've told him in the past that I don't like getting flirted with by him, and he can't or won't stop doing it. So, he is not someone I want to have around.

I can totally understand the militaries "Don't ask, Don't tell policy." Before my friend got his foot in the door by telling me he was gay, he didn't hit on me. I really don't want him to be comfortable hitting on me and/or my friends, because if he was not comfortable doing so, guess what? He wouldn't make a lot of other people uncomfortable.

Most of us know sexually aggressive males and/or females. If I was a women, and I knew a sexually aggressive heterosexual male, I wouldn't want him around. Since I am a man, I don't want sexually aggressive homosexual males (or sexually aggressive unattractive heterosexual females) around me.

So I understand why Christian males like promoting the idea that homosexuality is a sin. I'm not saying it's right to do so, but I understand.

John Kesler

Right, and Christians can argue, in light of the passages which I quoted before, that when Jesus died is when "everything" was accomplished.

You are probably thinking of Romans 1 regarding homosexuality. There is no hard-and-fast rule to determine which laws "carried over" beyond the death of Jesus, but short of an explicit NT declaration about particular behaviors (Galatians 5:19-21 for example), Paul gives a general principle in Romans 13:8-10:

There were also laws which gave Jews a separate identity as God's chosen people (Leviticus 20:26, Deuteronomy 7:6) such as food laws, circumcision, and the sabbath, but since Jew and Gentile can both become Christians and worship the true God (Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:11 ff; Acts 15), such distinctions are no longer relevant.

Malachi151

Basically, this was a matter of dispute among early Christians, and the Gospels are a battle ground of ideology, where this argument was played out. According to some Gospels, Mark, etc., Jesus abolished the law, according to others, Matthew, etc., he didn't.

Gamera

My handy dandy list. There simply is no doubt that Paul considered the OT law defunct as defunct can be. Further the Sermon on the Mount supports this, since Jesus contrasts the Law (which is conduct based) with his new standard which is intent based.

Jesus' trope "You have heard, but I say. . ." is essentially an enumeration of the replacement of the Law.


Romans 7:4 - Likewise, my
brethren, you have died to the law
through the body of Christ, so that
you may belong to another, to him
who has been raised from the dead
in order that we may bear fruit for
God.

Romans 7:6 - But now we are
discharged from the law, dead to
that which held us captive, so that
we serve not under the old written
code but in the new life of the Spirit.
Romans 13:8 - Owe no one
anything, except to love one
another; for he who loves his
neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Galatians 2:19 - For I through the
law died to the law, that I might live
to God.

Galatians 3:10 - For all who rely
on works of the law are under a
curse; for it is written, "Cursed be
every one who does not abide by all
things written in the book of the law,
and do them."

Galatians 3:23 - Now before
faith came, we were confined under
the law, kept under restraint until
faith should be revealed

Galatians 5:4 - You are severed
from Christ, you who would be
justified by the law; you have fallen
away from grace.

Galatians 5:18 - But if you are
led by the Spirit you are not under
the law.

Ephesians 2:15 - by abolishing
in his flesh the law of
commandments and ordinances,
that he might create in himself one
new man in place of the two, so
making peace,

Hebrews 7:12 -
For when there
is a change in the priesthood, there
is necessarily a change in the law
as well.

Hebrews 10:1 - For since the
law has but a shadow of the good
things to come instead of the true
form of these realities, it can never,
by the same sacrifices which are
continually offered year after year,
make perfect those who draw near

James 1:25 - But he who looks
into the perfect law, the law of
liberty, and perseveres, being no
hearer that forgets but a doer that
acts, he shall be blessed in his
doing.

James 2:10 - For whoever keeps
the whole law but fails in one point
has become guilty of all of it.