bahlool

Hello all,

I was speaking to an ex-Christian minister who told me that the concept of the trinity evolved in the early history of Christianity. He said that even decades after First Council of Nicaea many Christians were not sure who were the main persons in trinity and that Mary was considered by some to be one of the three in the trinity. He said that there were other versions of the trinity in the early days.

Is there any evidence for his claims?

stephan huller

You can read about my discovery of an earlier credal formula in the writings of Irenaeus here http://freeratio.org/showthread.php?...59#post6498859. As the author notes there is no mention of the Holy Spirit in his 'apostolic creed.' The Marcionite trinity (if you want to call it that) was Chrestos, the God of the Jews and the Devil. My guess is that the Father was always identified as the Jewish God. Chrestos the son was the better god according to the heretical formulation.

mountainman

A working definition of what he means by "early" would be expedient.

YES - see below.

The WIKI page states:
At the time of the Nicaean [War] Council the most abundant high profile and recent literary material concerning a "Holy Trinity" was published by Porphyry, one of the twleve apostles of Plotinus, as the works of Plotinus. Plotinus was one of the key authors in the lineage of the Neoplatonists, and the "Holy Trinity" of Plotinus is summarised in the following - sourced from the History of Western Philosophy - Bertrand Russell - 1945:


If we are to use the research contained in ARIUS: Heresy & Tradition by Rowan Williams, then the following is relevant to this question of the evolution of the "christian version of the holy trinity"....


Fourth Century Evolution of the "Christian Holy Trinity"

There is a great deal of evidence that the 4th century christians were having a great deal of trouble coming to terms with an orthodoxy related to the christian version of the Holy Trinity of Plotinus. Here are two referencews to have a look through in regard to the documentation of various "heresies" which were undoubtedly extant in the empire at that time.

Examining the Anathemas of 4th CE Church Councils as representative of [contrary] public opinion:

Hilary of Poitiers' De Synodis :

Obviously there was a great deal of resistance to the notion that the christian religion had at that time any form of orthodox "Holy Trinity" since as the above evidence clearly discloses, massive controversies were abundant over this and other issues commencing at Nicaea (where the Holy Trinity was NOT mentioned) and continuing for centuries.

For example 22: Saying that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three Gods. was an opinion which was obviously in abundance in the empire mid 4th century. What was happening? On the surface there was a great controversy raging, but as to the ultimate cause of that controversy, if we follow Rowan Williams's analysis, we have to go back to Arius of Alexandria (and Plotinus).

SUMMARY

The evolution of the concept of a "Christian Holy Trinity" commenced with the appropriation by the orthodox of the logic and philosophy of the Platonic form of the "Holy Trinity" as expressed by Plotinus. This evolution was an evolution by anathema (ie: via authoritative preclusion supported by the Christian Roman Emperors) and continued throught the 4th and 5th centuries until the academy of Plato was finally closed.

At that time, to an independent political observer, public opinion about Jesus is not at all positive and orthodox. However later "Christian Church authors" such as Cyril of Alexandria "harmonised" all these controversies and conflicting accounts by casting massive anathemas in all directions. Orthodoxy was obtained by the sword. Massive orthodox church cover-ups were undertaken during the 4th and 5th century which are only now beginning to be sketched out by the re-examination of the ancient historical evidence.

andrewcriddle

The doctrine of the Trinity required clarification in the early Christian centuries, many early Christian writers express themselves on the Trinity in ways that would later be regarded as not entirely orthodox.

However, I am not aware of evidence that any early Christians regarded Mary as a member of the Trinity. (This is an accusation made against Christians in the Quran/Koran but this is a relatively late source.) Some early Christians did regard the Holy Spirit as (metaphorically) feminine and as (metaphorically) the mother of God the Son within the Godhead, but this is a different idea.

Andrew Criddle

avi

One of my favorite heroes, (along with Joan of Arc, and William Tyndale) is Michael Servetus, Spanish theologian, scholar, physician, and renaissance man extraordinaire.

He was fluent and literate in both Hebrew and Greek, and, having read both old and new testaments in the original languages, published a book, primarily medical (he "rediscovered" the pulmonary circulation, though, since he was an astute philologist, perhaps he had read ibn al nafis' arabic description of the same anatomical insight, written a couple of centuries before Servetus), which also contained a refutation of trinitarianism, and, as a result, was condemned to die as a heretic by the Catholics.

He fled France, where he had worked as a physician, to escape the Inquisition, only to land in Switzerland, John Calvin's domain: there he was arrested, tried, and executed, in exactly the same fashion, by burning alive at the stake. Martin Luther and John Calvin concurred that he must be executed as a heretic, for reputing trinitarianism.

avi

Roger Pearse

No.

The formula and the term was defined by Tertullian ca. 200 AD, but he said he was merely articulating the biblical teaching. Have a read of Adversus Praxean, the first 5 chapters. The Evans translation is the latest and is online.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

aa5874

Based on Justin Martyr there was NO trinity during his time and Justin was BEFORE "Tertullian"

This is "First Apology" 13.

Justin Martyr did NOT write that Jesus was EQUAL to God or any thing about the Trinity.

And even after Tertullian, this is found in the preface to De Principiis by Origen.

Based on Origen and Justin Martyr the doctrine of the Trinity was developed LATE.

mountainman

There are two separate claims here in the OP.
They each apply to different historical epochs.
(1) Before Nicaea and (2) After Nicaea.


Let's just clearly list these claims which are mixed.


1) that the concept of the trinity evolved in the early history of Christianity.
2) that even decades after First Council of Nicaea many Christians were not sure who were the main persons in trinity
3) that (decades after Nicaea) Mary was considered by some to be one of the three in the trinity
4) that there were other versions of the trinity in the early days.

We can see that claim 4 is a restatement of claim 1 and relates to the period before Nicaea (which is generally what people mean when they say "Early" days or early history). We can see that claim 2 and 3 are related and apply to the period after Nicaea.

So there are two basic claims in the OP.

(1) the concept of the trinity was "around" before Nicaea.
(2) the concept of the trinity was "very contraversial" after Nicaea (even involving Mary).


(1) Evidence in support of the first claim is entirely dependent upon the assessment allocated to the integrity of the source known as "Eusebius Pamphilus", who presents snippets of fortuitous documents which he "finds" in the archives. (eg: Tertullian, Papias, Ireaeus, Jesus Christ, Josephus, etc). Evolution of the concept of the trinity in this epoch looks a bit like a scriptorium copy/paste job. See the "Historia Augusta" for an idea of genre.

(2) Evidence in support of the second claim is generally acknowledged to be represented by a wide variety of historical sources. See the history of church councils during the 4th century, especially their "lists of anathemas". A mighty whirlwind of turbulent controversy errupted out of the doors to the Nicaean [War] Council and down the generations that followed. The writings of Porphyry, including the "Holy Trinity of Plotinus and the Neoplatonic sages and philosophers, were ordered to be destroyed. Knowledge of controversies were hush-hushed by Cyril etc in the 5th century. Evolution of the concept of the trinity in this epoch involved the heretics, the populace, the new Nicaean church, and the christian emperors.

Chili

The Trinity is very simple. It is the right brain and left brain and the relationship between these two. Now notice that when the dove landed on Jesus the trinity collapsed and Jesus said: "the father and I are one!" From here on the HS is redundant anyway and from now on Mary is mediatrix between Elizabeth (Alma Mater) and Jesus the son who needs to learn to walk on water yet since the will of the father is in knowing her.