Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-21-2010, 10:05 AM

Quote:

John Dominic Crossan is arguably the world’s foremost scholar of the historical Jesus. . . .

Q: The Lord’s Prayer addresses God as “Father.” Is that a turn-off for women?

A: It is, and they’re going to have to learn, as we all have to, what is meant by people who use a different culture than our own. Sheep and shepherds don’t do much for me, but I will allow ancient people the validity of their language.

When they say “Father,” I ask what that meant in the Mediterranean world, and it means “householder.” I accept the traditional term of “Father,” but I do not accept the patriarchal presuppositions. I say “Father” (but) I read “householder.” The most important point is that you understand what this metaphor stands for.

Q: Scholars have shown the Lord’s Prayer to come straight from the Jewish tradition. How did it become Christianity’s best-known prayer?

A: It is utterly, totally, fully Jewish. There’s nothing in there that’s particularly “Christian.” Do I think Jesus drilled his followers to learn the prayer as we have it in (the Gospels of) Matthew or Luke? I don’t think so, because I can’t find it in (the writings of) Paul. What I do find in Paul and (the Gospel of) Mark is the key word: “Abba”—the metaphor for God as householder. If you unpack that, everything else simply flows from it.

Q: What new light does all this shed on the historical Jesus?

A: If you had to summarize the historical Jesus, we are now down to a single word, almost an ecstatic proclamation: God is “Abba.” And God as householder is the way the ancient Jews and earliest Christians got their idea of how things should be run. They all knew what a well-run household looked like, and they made God the Big Householder in the Sky. What appalled them was not poverty or riches, but the discrepancy between them, the inequality.

Question: Does "abba" translate as "householder" or is it more like "daddy"?

And how do you get from god the patriarchal householder who ruled an unequal conglomeration of children, wives, concubines, relatives, and slaves, to egalitarian socialism?

show_no_mercy · 10-21-2010, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Question: Does "abba" translate as "householder" or is it more like "daddy"?

I would think that in a patriarchal society they would be observationally equivalent.

Toto · 10-21-2010, 11:38 AM

I was wrong - Abba is not the same as daddy (I had assumed this because I had heard Jewish children call their fathers "Abba".) But it is also not an indication of an egalitarian household.

comment on Galatians

Quote:

“Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.” The word “Abba,” is a transliteration. The word “Father,” is a translation. There is no English word that adequately conveys the meaning of the Aramaic word, “Abba.” This is why the translators gave us this transliteration “Abba.” The word conveys a close intimacy that is reserved for parents and children. We might compare the word to dad, but this doesn’t do it justice.

Abba not daddy

Quote:

Now the dispute comes over the meaning of Abba. What has bothered me is that in certain evangelical circles, those circles which are given over to touch-feely theology, has started this idea that the term “Abba” means “Daddy.” Yet, no where in any of my studies have I ever been able to confirm this translation. I know that for some, it may bring up the liver quiver of all liver quivers, yet this is no reason to use it.

... the point of the term “Abba” was to stress the adoption we have in Christ. Under Jewish Law, the servants of the household were not allowed to call the head of the household “Abba.” That was a term reserved for the children, both adopted and natural. Paul is using this phrase to show us that we are no longer just servants to God, but His children. Our relationship has changed.

Aramaic blog: Abba isn't daddy

mountainman · 10-21-2010, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

And how do you get from god the patriarchal householder who ruled an unequal conglomeration of children, wives, concubines, relatives, and slaves, to egalitarian socialism?

Buddhism and other eastern "philosophies/religions/metaphysics" (eg: doesn't the term also appear in the "Gita"?) seem to specifically address the equivalence of the "householder" and the "monk" - both of whom are on the "nondual path". Perhaps Crossan is digging deep into things that are not historical (as far as Christian Origins and Jesus goes) but rather "philosophical" material.

Historically, it would appear that the advice that was shared and privy between Constantine and Eusebius suggested that it was the right thing to do to include "The Shepherd of Hermas" into the books of the Constantine Bible. But the canonization of this set of books was a failure - Nicaea was not successful in canonization since all it produced was a monstrous and turbulent controversy which lasted centuries. The close of the NT canon happened over 40 years after this first bible publication. Some books were removed from the list (including "The Shepherd") and some were added.

It is imo appropriate that you mentioned slaves. The class structure of that epoch is often forgotten by "Christian history enthusiasts".

spamandham · 10-21-2010, 09:52 PM

I'm pretty surprised see that Crossan has moved this far away from historicism. The single word "Abba" summarizes it!? What about the cross, what about the crucifixion by Pilate....these are no longer central to a historical Jesus in his mind!?

Sheshbazzar · 10-21-2010, 10:30 PM

'Jebus historicism'=grasping at straws of nothing, as one sinks into the mire of opinion.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-21-2010, 09:52 PM	#5
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	I'm pretty surprised see that Crossan has moved this far away from historicism. The single word "Abba" summarizes it!? What about the cross, what about the crucifixion by Pilate....these are no longer central to a historical Jesus in his mind!?

10-21-2010, 10:30 PM	#6
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	'Jebus historicism'=grasping at straws of nothing, as one sinks into the mire of opinion.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.