Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 07-11-2008, 11:46 AM

This material seems to come from Shepherds who slay the sheep by McKinney http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shepherds-Sh.../dp/1425722504
See http://books.google.co.uk/books?as_q...maxy=&as_isbn=

I think it should be treated with caution.

Andrew Criddle

Jeffrey Gibson · 07-11-2008, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

This material seems to come from Shepherds who slay the sheep by McKinney http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shepherds-Sh.../dp/1425722504
See http://books.google.co.uk/books?as_q...maxy=&as_isbn=

I think it should be treated with caution.

Andrew Criddle

Yes, especially since, as the PW notes, the releif on which the word appears is one that concerns not Mithras, but the king Mithridates VI! (the Chrestos in question was his brother).

Is what we have in McKinney's claim another example of an MJ proponent misunderstanding/misreading/misrepresenting/having no competency to evaluate the "evidence" she adduces in "support" of his case?

Jeffrey

Toto · 07-11-2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

This material [The Mithras inscription in the Vatican] seems to come from Shepherds who slay the sheep by McKinney ...
I think it should be treated with caution.

Andrew Criddle

This book appears to be self published. You can read some of it here.

But I'm not clear on why you think McKinney would be the source of the quote. (I am clear on why we all want to avoid relying on the author of "Yahweh's Bride" who writes: "The devil has indeed deceived the whole world and in this book you will discover his devices on how he accomplishes this. Just as the scripture says, the whole world is deceived. That means all the religious leaders who think that they have the knowledge of the Kingdom of heaven had better take another look.")

Toto · 07-11-2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

..
Yes, especially since, as the PW notes, the releif on which the word appears is one that concerns not Mithras, but the king Mithridates VI! (the Chrestos in question was his brother).

Is what we have in McKinney's claim another example of an MJ proponent misunderstanding/misreading/misrepresenting/having no competency to evaluate the "evidence" she adduces in "support" of his case?

Jeffrey

McKinney is far, far from being a MJ proponent.

andrewcriddle · 07-11-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

This material [The Mithras inscription in the Vatican] seems to come from Shepherds who slay the sheep by McKinney ...
I think it should be treated with caution.

Andrew Criddle

This book appears to be self published. You can read some of it here.

But I'm not clear on why you think McKinney would be the source of the quote.

Hi Toto

I'm sorry, you were right to be doubtful and I was wrong.

Further investigation on the tyndale site found this page http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/scriptu...re/heathen.htm which says

Quote:

Are you aware that there are numerous words that we use in our churches and read in the Scriptures that have their origin in pagan religions, especially in sun worship? This series of essays is an etymological study of a few of these words and a comparative study to show which versions have included them.

The etymology of several words comes from Come Out of Her My People, researched and written by C. J. Koster and published by the Institute for Scriptural Research in Northriding, Republic of South Africa. (The edition which I am using was published in 1998.) I thank the Board of ISR for granting me permission to quote extensively from this book. I have quoted only a little from each of the words listed below. There are several other words which are not included here.

Come out of her my people is on Amazon here http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...ernetInfidels/

Quote:

Written by C. J. Koster, Come Out of Her My People originally published as The Final Reformation in Africa, contains a wealth of thoroughly researched material on how elements from ancient Babylonian Sun Worship and Pagan religions infiltrated early Christianity. It challenges the readers to re-examine the doctrines of their faith and to seek out the Truth in the Scriptures.

with readers comment

Quote:

Koster appears to have taken most of his information from the cult, the Assemblies of Yahweh. His insistance upon using the various Hebrew names for God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit go from poor understandings of the Greek language to flat out denials. His writing style is poor and the structure of the book appears to not have been very well thought out. Koster appears mad throughout the book at the "established Church" and he seems mad enough to essentially condemn anyone who calls the holy Scriptures "the Bible" or calls Yahushua "Jesus" or has a cross up in their meetings or calls their assemblies "church" or who worship on Sunday (or some other day other than Saturday and dare not call the days or months by its Greek names!) than they are going to burn forever. Further, any follower of the Messiah not keeping the entire Law of Moses is lost! Ironically, few Jews have "converted" to Messianic Jewish roots despite Koster's belief that this will usher in a great harvest of Jews into the kingdom of Elohim. Could it be they see the error of the Sacred Name Movement as do many Gentiles such as I?

Koster appears the ultimate source but he is not obviously more reliable than McKinney.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 07-11-2008, 01:14 PM

Thanks for this research.

Note to Jeffrey: these are not proponents of the mythical Jesus. They are proponents of the Jewish Messiah Jesus.

Jeffrey Gibson · 07-11-2008, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Thanks for this research.

Note to Jeffrey: these are not proponents of the mythical Jesus. They are proponents of the Jewish Messiah Jesus.

OK. Even though I'm not sure what this means.

Jeffrey

EarlDoherty · 07-11-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGibson

Yes, especially since, as the PW notes, the releif on which the word appears is one that concerns not Mithras, but the king Mithridates VI! (the Chrestos in question was his brother).

Not that I would ever doubt Jeffrey’s honesty, but perhaps he could give us a more specific source for this statement. Perhaps explaining what “PW” means would help, but has he also checked the primary source itself, or a reproduction of it? I don’t have much doubt that what he says is correct, but in principle, how are we to know that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger

Are you endorsing this remarkable collection of anti-factual rubbish?

It is one thing to “approach with caution” material like this, but another simply to declare it “rubbish.” We would need more to go on. For example, one of the things stated in the quote from this site is: “We also read in J.M. Robertson, Christianity and Mythology, p. 331, that Osiris, the Sun-deity of Egypt, was reverenced as Chrestos.” I presume that Robertson was basing this at least partly on the letter attributed to Hadrian which says: “Those who worship Serapis are the Chrestians, and those who call themselves priests of Chrestus are devoted to Serapis…” as read in Fl. Vopiscus.

It doesn’t matter who actually wrote this, Hadrian or some ancient forger, nor does it matter what sort of site or publication is reproducing it. It does constitute a “primary source,” unless it is being misrepresented. Why is it automatically to be dismissed as rubbish? It seems that much if not all of the discussion which this thread has degenerated into revolves around attempts to discredit the vehicles of this information, rather than the information itself.

Earl Doherty

andrewcriddle · 07-12-2008, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGibson

Yes, especially since, as the PW notes, the releif on which the word appears is one that concerns not Mithras, but the king Mithridates VI! (the Chrestos in question was his brother).

Not that I would ever doubt Jeffrey’s honesty, but perhaps he could give us a more specific source for this statement. Perhaps explaining what “PW” means would help, but has he also checked the primary source itself, or a reproduction of it? I don’t have much doubt that what he says is correct, but in principle, how are we to know that?

Hi Earl

PW is Pauly-Wissowa AKA Realencyclopaedie the original alleged primary source for this claim.

Quote:

According to Realencyclopaedie, the inscription Chrestos is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse · 07-12-2008, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

...the letter attributed to Hadrian which says: “Those who worship Serapis are the Chrestians, and those who call themselves priests of Chrestus are devoted to Serapis…” as read in Fl. Vopiscus.

It doesn’t matter who actually wrote this, Hadrian or some ancient forger, nor does it matter what sort of site or publication is reproducing it. It does constitute a “primary source,” unless it is being misrepresented. Why is it automatically to be dismissed as rubbish?

You've picked up on precisely the claim that marked the page as nonsense for me, at least. I've certainly seen that one before.

You see, the entry in the Historia Augusta does not say that Serapis worshippers are called Christians, endless repetition on the internet notwithstanding. It says that Egyptians are so lacking in conscience that those who are called Christians and Jews worship Serapis, and those worshipping Serapis go to church, etc.

It's a classic example of misrepresentation of sources, and the sort of thing that leads us to always verify such claims.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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07-11-2008, 11:46 AM	#11
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	This material seems to come from Shepherds who slay the sheep by McKinney http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shepherds-Sh.../dp/1425722504 See http://books.google.co.uk/books?as_q...maxy=&as_isbn= I think it should be treated with caution. Andrew Criddle

07-11-2008, 01:14 PM	#16
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Thanks for this research. Note to Jeffrey: these are not proponents of the mythical Jesus. They are proponents of the Jewish Messiah Jesus.

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