Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Voice of reason · 05-23-2009, 08:00 AM

Where is this is the New Testament? Is it in the New Testament or is it ambigious and not really there at all?

zorq · 05-23-2009, 08:24 AM

New International Version (NIV)

Hebrews 7:18

18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

Hebrews 8:13

13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Ephesians 2:15

15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Deus Ex · 05-23-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And this is from Matthew 5. The author of Matthew seems not to agree with Paul.

Voice of reason · 05-23-2009, 10:56 AM

Seems to be conflictional to me?

ksen · 05-23-2009, 11:24 AM

Galatians 3:23-25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatians 3

[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Zenaphobe · 05-23-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Quote:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And this is from Matthew 5. The author of Matthew seems not to agree with Paul.

I think they use this verse to claim there is no conflict

Quote:

Luke 24:44 (King James Version)

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

I'm a bit hazy on my apologetics so I might be wrong here. :grin:

Deus Ex · 05-23-2009, 12:18 PM

A careful read of verses 18 and 19 show that the law does not pass until Heaven and earth pass away. I believe it is clear that the author of Matthew was a Torah observant believer in Jesus (He seemed to be lax on Sabbath rules).

I also believe that Matthew was written later than Paul's genuine writings and I think the author was including a little dig towards Paul (especially verse 19).

Quote:

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

dimbulb · 05-23-2009, 12:33 PM

Details. Details. Just surrender your reason and believe.
Everything will turn out great.
It's all about shutting your eyes and gulping it down.

Pyrrho · 05-23-2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Quote:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And this is from Matthew 5. The author of Matthew seems not to agree with Paul.

The author of Matthew claimed that that is what Jesus himself said.

Pyrrho · 05-23-2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zorq

New International Version (NIV)

Hebrews 7:18

18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

Hebrews 8:13

13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Ephesians 2:15

15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

The meaning of your first and third quotes, in context, are not as clear as the meaning expressed in Matthew 5. And your quote from Hebrews 8 is saying that the law will disappear, which means, of course, at the time of its writing, it is saying that the law is still in effect. The idea of it happening "soon" fits with all of the verses in the New Testament proclaiming that the second coming will happen before all of the people alive at that time will die.

E.g. (KJV),

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 9:27
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

etc.

05-23-2009, 08:00 AM	#1
Voice of reason Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: The Blue planet Posts: 2,250	Where in the New Testament does it state that Old Testament Law is abolished? Where is this is the New Testament? Is it in the New Testament or is it ambigious and not really there at all?

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05-23-2009, 08:24 AM	#2
zorq Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nevada Posts: 1,216	New International Version (NIV) Hebrews 7:18 18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless Hebrews 8:13 13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Ephesians 2:15 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

05-23-2009, 10:56 AM	#4
Voice of reason Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: The Blue planet Posts: 2,250	Seems to be conflictional to me?

05-23-2009, 12:33 PM	#8
dimbulb Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: SE U.S. Posts: 1,981	Details. Details. Just surrender your reason and believe. Everything will turn out great. It's all about shutting your eyes and gulping it down.

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