Bilbato

I will have to go to the public library here, I am sure they would probably have one, if not both of those. And I understand how generalized the term shaman or shamanism is. So, I could learn the traditional names from the different cultures that would be contained within shamanism and see as to which one of the many traditional names Jesus would most be accurate with.

Amaleq13

Yes, the 40 day fast followed by Satan's temptation. Fasting for 40 days in the wilderness certainly threatens one's life and could bring one to the brink of death but the return from death isn't necessary. It is, however, a common theme.

Bilbato

Ok, so then one more question I have. With this essay, will I have to prove that Judaism has aspects of shamanism? Technically speaking, shamans can only exist in a society or culture that is shamanistic to my understanding. When removed from that society they become something else, correct? So for me to claim Jesus as a shaman, then I must logically prove that the culture he existed within was shamanistic. Or maybe I am just looking to indepth for this entire thing?

Amaleq13

If he has to be called a "shaman" by his culture to qualify, he wasn't a shaman. But that is, IMO, an unecessarily restricted definition. You should be talking about the role the shaman plays in a given culture compared to the role Jesus played in 1st century Jewish culture. I think the type or role of a shaman was filled in ancient Jewish culture by miracle-working holy men. Geza Vermes talks about them in Jesus the Jew but there might be a better source fo which I am not aware.

andrewcriddle

If we're trying to avoid very vague uses of 'shaman' and 'shamanism' then I think it should be restricted to those who enter a trance or state of altered consciousness in the presence of those seeking their help and who in this altered state contact the spiritual world in order to provide that help.

The best biblical example of what I mean is Elisha in 2 Kings chapter 3 I don't think this sort of thing is typical of Israelite prophets and holy men in general or Jesus in particular.

Andrew Criddle

Amaleq13

Is it typical of shamans across cultures? I recall it being described as part of the initiation experience.

It reminds me a bit of Paul's tongue-speaking congregations, though.

andrewcriddle

Isaiah having an 'out of body' experience in the (probably) 2nd century Ascension of Isaiah may be a better comparison than Paul's congregations.

My real problem is that if you define Shaman as someone in touch with the spiritual world in a special way, then, by that definition, I quite agree that Jesus is presented as a shaman in the Gospels. However this seems too broad a definition to be interesting.

If you define it more narrowly so as to make Shamanism one among several ways by which people have sought after spiritual reality then the resemblances of Shamanism narrowly defined to the picture of Jesus in the Gospels become much reduced.

Andrew Criddle

Bilbato

I would say that speaking in tongues would be a form of contact with the "spritual/spirit" world. Watching a show on National Geographic, tey talked about it, and what happens is that the state that they begin speaking in tongues is more of a self induced hypnotic state, much like what the Shamans do to contact the spirit world. And often it is the point of entering into that hypnotic state to speak directly with God and ask his help for healing or some other thing.

So it seems obvious to me, that even though they may not be called shaman, they very clearly perform shamanistic rituals. I mean look at communion, that is nothing more then a ritual "cleansing." So it seems very apparent and obvious to me that no matter how you argue it, Christianity and all other "modern" day religions are nothing more then specialized shamanistic religions.

Also, by referring to Christianity or Muslim, or Shamanism, you are taking on a generalized view of such things. As each person within those religions may have quite different beliefs. So if you want to be as anal as you are, then you shouldn't really even speak about Christianity, because so many people within the Christian faith have such different ideas and beliefs.

andrewcriddle

Cross-culturally 'speaking in tongues' seems similar to 'spirit possession'.

Most people trying to avoid a very broad definition of shamanism separate it from 'spirit possession'

If you are saying that every religion that has ever existed is a form of very widely defined shamanism, then I agree that Jesus is, by that definition, presented as a shaman in the Gospels.

However I do not regard this as a particularly interesting result.

Andrew Criddle

Amaleq13

I think the idea of arguing that Jesus was "nothing more than a shaman" is doomed. You're probably better off with a compare/contrast essay.