Orthodox_Freethinker

For the sake of debate, allow us to assume that the four Canonical Gospels are historically reliable and accurate.
Even if that is true, it does not prove the ultimate truth claims of the Christian faith. There is a whole range of possibilities that could have provided the same result. For example, there could be a whole pantheon of gods with Jesus being a lesser god who became incarnate in order to deceive mankind with false promises of salvation and afterlife.
This claim would be impossible to either prove or disprove. All we can do is hope that God is not deceptive and wouldn't go through the pain of crucifixion for the ultimate practical joke.


Peace.

Sven

Although I need spectacles, I can read your posts quite well in the normal text size.

Tell this to your fellow Christians. You are preaching to the choir.

Looks like a false dichotomy. The story being entirely true or being a "joke" are certainly not the only possibilities.

I think this thread is point~else, umm, less.

Orthodox_Freethinker

Granted, they are not the only possibilities. But for the sake of discussion, allow us to assume that the Gospels are historically accurate.
Ultimately, the reason why I believe that Jesus is the one and only Son of God rather than the incarnation of Lord Krishna is my faith. It's a matter of personal preference, of what I feel from the heart. No amount of historical evidence will conclusively show that I have not been deceived which is why "faith" ultimately means "trust".

Peace.

Asha'man

This, btw, is why atheist scholars are far more legitimate when studying the Bible than theist scholars.

The theist is unable to entertain any hypothesis that disagrees with his biases. The gospels simply must be true, and any evidence to the contrary must be mistaken.

On the other hand, the atheist has lots of options available. They could be embellishments of a historical incident. They could be 2nd century forgeries. They could be 19th century forgeries. They could be perfect accurate observations made by someone who was fooled by a charlatan, an alien, or a demon. All of these options are still compatible with his basic preconceptions.

However, the atheist wants to figure out which options are real, and which are imaginary. So, the atheist will use rational thinking, backed by evidence, to sort between the options. The theist will use faith, and almost certainly be incorrect.

Please don't try to mess with the definition of faith anymore, it's been abused far more than it deserves. Faith, when used in the religious sense, clearly means something other than just plain "trust."

Formally, I define faith as a belief held with a conviction or certainty that is unjustified by the available evidence.

You might also distinguish 'faith' from 'trust' by saying that 'faith' is unearned trust.

However, no matter which definition you like, faith is ultimately bullshit. It's believing for no good reason whatsoever. It's the best possible way to guarantee that you are wrong.

If you based your beliefs on evidence, then there is a self-correcting mechanism. When you are presented with new evidence, you change your beliefs accordingly. If you base your beliefs on faith, you are stuck in a hole and can only did yourself deeper. Everybody makes mistakes, but by not striving to hold your beliefs to a standard of support you are ensuring that your mistakes endure.

Orthodox_Freethinker

Oftentimes, the scholars who believe in the historicity of the Gospels are more motivated by the evidence than those who hold them in doubt. For example, compare John Dominic Crossan with William Lane Craig.

Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no available evidence against the historicity of the Gospels and therefore, it is reasonable to hold them as true given the amount of evidence in their favor.

Faith
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

Peace.

mata leao

sure it can, fulfilled bible prophecy conclusively proves the Bible as the inerrant, inspired word of God.

Orthodox_Freethinker

...not if God or some other divine being is actually deceiving us.

Peace.

mata leao

God, God "analog". it calls itself God.

NZSkep

Zeus has appeared to me in a dream and told me to make the prophecy that someone will reply to a thread on IIDB at least once in the next three years. If my prophecy comes true (and i think it will int he next minute or so) then that conclusively proves me as the inerrant, inspired word of Zeus.
thank you.

seebs

So, uhm.

As a swan? What was that all about?