Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 02-20-2005, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

With thanks to Amaleq

I have 10 fingers (digits) if I assign each a value of .7 (seven tenths) the sum of the 10 digits is 7, equally divided, 3.5 (three and a half) on one hand, and 3.5 (three and one half) on the other hand, 7 equal halves on either hand.

Concerning the measurement of Noah's ark, in at least 2 previous threads, I attempted (and failed) to draw forth some response with the following questions;
How many 'handbreadths' are in your 'cubit'?
How many 'fingerbreadths' are in your 'cubit'?
How many 'cubits' are in your measuring 'reed'?

Yes I am writing about a "system" of mathematics and measure, as complete and as "Standardized" as any held by any worldly government or kingdom.

Chili · 02-20-2005, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Honest questions, or requests for clarification, that pertain directly to the points being made in the subject are welcomed,
'philosophical' diversions are not.

At the risk if it being called a diversion (called a 'derail' elsewhere) would you mind if I add my contribution to the numbers game?

First, let me tell you that I see nothing holy in numbers except that they need each other to tell a story which makes them equal parts in the story. My story is very Catholic but is told on almost every clock (I used to stare at a clock for hours while working on a 'split machine,' which was the most boring job I have ever done in my life).

According to me the number 1 represents man in the image of God, singular and undivided such as man was before the fall of man.

In the number 2 the fall of man is shown where instead of coming full circle in his mind he went the other way instead. Notice the diversion in the shape of the number 2 to indicate that.

Hence he was divided in the number 3 and therefore not full circle in either mind . . . but also removed from Eden which is the top half of this number.

In the number 4 man took "power, wealth and beauty" to be his lesser gods that would enrich his life. The intricate weave of the lesser gods in the number 4 show the complexity of this life along the road dust of the sun while in search for happiness.

The number 5 shows the reversal of the faith we saw when we first went the other way in the number 2. It (the 5) may be seen as an inversion of faith wherein even the morning star doesn't announce good news any longer.

In the number 6 we are in the full rage of the tempest from where only we can see a glimmer of hope in the faith that is ours from our ancestors. They called it Nazareth to which Mary was send from Eden (where she was the servant of the Lord only), to lead Joseph back to the place he first started and so give him a second chance on life. The 6 is where we end our involutionary yang period and must necessarily begin the evolutionary yin period (if there is sufficient change brought about).

Hence, in the number 7 we have 2 identities, human and man-like-God-in-becoming which is the child that is to become the peace-maker outside of Eden. No argument is needed to justify rebirth if it is an event that is native to mankind (or our clock would only need 6 hours and stop right here).

It goes on to the number 8 where we are complete in both minds and can tell of both the old and the new.

Ready to die to the old ego in the number 9 but retain its accumulations in heaven on earth.

And have a testimony in force that the old passed away in the number 10

And in 11 we ride into the New Jerusalem on the old and the new, now side by side as if consciously walking with God. Cf 1, 11 and 7.

In the number 12 we meet our second death and return to dust.

Clivedurdle · 02-21-2005, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Indeed Amaleq and Toto that is my intention, the discussion of the the length and value of the cubit is integral to the entire field of mathematics, it is therefore needful to present a "Bronze Age goat herders" perspective on the use of the hands and fingers in calculating and measuring.

I understood that the reason we have 12 inches in a foot and sixty minutes in an hour is because of our hands.

Look at your hand.

Ignore the thumb for a minute. Each finger has three segments. Four fingers. Four times three is twelve.

Add the thumb - makes five digits. Twelve times five is sixty.

I thought it was one of the early civilisations that first codified this and it has continued to the present day, in hours and minutes, degrees, and feet and inches - (FEET!)

I do not believe in bronze age goatherders - they were in contact with some very sophisticated people, and ideas that assist counting and calculating would definitely spread because they are so useful - and to be honest - magical - leading to some numbers being holy.

Three, four, seven and twelve are all deriveable from your four fingers and three segments on each finger.

The cubit is a length of an arm. Maths probably developed by looking at ourselves.

The interesting question is possibly the other way around - what clues does the Bible give to the history of number?

Sheshbazzar · 02-21-2005, 06:58 AM

Thank you Clivedurdle, for your very astute observations, There has been and still is a general presumption on the part of men who -should- know better, that the Patriarch's of the faith were relatively ignorant and crude in their systems of measurements, while all evidence is that civilization had very early on developed some very sophisticated and precise systems of standards.
Most now, because they have forgotten, and cannot discern the underlying mathematical and geometrical principals, have dismissed the cubit as being a crude and inaccurate measure, the length of any man's "arm from elbow to fingertip", whereas the evidence of Scripture demands it be as accurate as humanly possible.
This supposition is as ignorant as supposing that the 'foot' measurement set by the U.S. Bureau of Standards is the length of anyone's foot.
What my little exercise in finger multiplication was about, and is intended to demonstrate is, that although the division of hours into minutes and seconds is usually attributed to being introduced at a much latter time in history, the concepts, indeed even the very same precise numbers were part and parcel of the math being used from before the time of Noah.

Clivedurdle · 02-21-2005, 10:32 AM

Thank you, but be careful, I don't support all your conclusions!

A slight side question, what if John instead of "Word was God" had written "Number was God, or both?

Sheshbazzar · 02-21-2005, 12:42 PM

I am satisfied to find honest individuals that are capable of exercising independent thought and reason
I certainly do not expect to find here anyone that supports all of my conclusions, (that would be a miracle indeed)
As I do not presume to ask this of even those who I account as my fellow Believers, brethren, and members of my own Faith.

Rather than entertain questions of "what ifs" to which definitive answers will remain unavailable, The purpose of this thread is to entertain a serious discussion pertaining to the text of Genesis 6:15 and the length of the cubit.

When I pose the question, "How many fingerbreadths are in your cubit?" or
"How many handbreadths are in your cubit?"
no one need be shy in admitting to not having any certain answer, the very question is set to get honest men seeking for the correct answer, and this is in itself honorable even if a man should perish before attaining any certain knowledge.

Come on folks, its not all that difficult, clues are all over the place, even in your own hands, make a 'wild guess', you will be none the worse than remaining in your ignorance, and at least you will have established a place to begin your reasoning from.

A good teacher does not teach answers, but poses questions, and encourages the listeners to find the correct answers.
This much I will tell beyond the valuing of one fingerbreadth at the value of seven tenths, I employ three lengths of cubits, and three lengths of measuring reeds, all use the fingerbreadth as the common unit and therefore agree at common multiples, all are precision instruments whose divisions are based in time and geometry, As three hundred and sixty weeks has precisely two hundred seventeen million seven hundred twenty eight thousand seconds,
not one more, not one less, so my measuring instruments are as precise.
-Zerubabble-

Clivedurdle · 02-21-2005, 02:07 PM

Stecchini

Is this about correct?

Sheshbazzar · 02-21-2005, 03:06 PM

Other than in the most basic laws of geometry, the units of measure that I employ have no correlation to any Egyptian units of measure, nor to the mathematics of the pyramids, Which to my people are the symbol of slavery, corrupt power, profane ignorance and the abominations of idolatry;
Having escaped therefrom, No faithful Israelite desires to turn thither again.

Men have made 'cubits' of many differing lengths, kings and tyrants have lengthened, or shortened their 'cubits' and 'reeds' at will.
Make for yourself a cubit of any length you will, I will measure it with my measure, a bruised reed, yet unbroken in the hand of my Elohim,
Whose measure will never change nor vary. -Zerubabble-

rdalin · 02-21-2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

I will be up front in asking that the posters to this thread be on their best behavior, in refraining from engaging in sarcasm, ridicule, mockery, or any manner of speech or device that is contrary to good manners.
(In other words folks, lets keep the Smilies out)

What makes a number 'Holy'?
On the simplest level, Believers will account a number as being particularly 'Holy' with respect of how often or how prominently it is featured in the The Bible, thus the contrast between the 'Holy' number 7 and the less esteemed number eight, or the 'Holy' number 12 and the less esteemed number 13, and for some this is sufficient to establish that a particular number is to be accepted as 'Holy', ie "The Bible tells me so".

Another level or approach to 'Holy' numbers is that employed by those who study 'prophesy' in an attempt to determine the timing and/or sequence of events, past, present, and future on which they base their faith and future expectations. Similarly are those who endeavor to employ numbers to seek out "hidden messages" and "Bible Codes" within the texts.
Most long time members of IIDB are by now well acquainted with these.

Another level or approach to 'Holy' numbers is that employed by those devout Believers who desire to please their Maker by the proper observance of the 'set times', of the 'Sabbaths' and 'Holy Days' set forth in the Law, this approach and usage of 'Holy' numbers is usually deemed to be the domain of the 'ultra-orthodox' and the 'legalists'.

Another level or approach to 'Holy' numbers, is 'pure' mathematics and geometry, and it is in this that I take my stand.
(not disassociating myself from those fellow Believers who have attained to a confident faith in any or all of the foregoing, it is after all the Master that justifies His own)

What then makes a particular number 'Holy' to me?
The "builders rule" or "law" of the Right triangle, expressed as the 3-4-5 rule, where the sum of the two legs of a Right triangle is 7, the diagonal 5, the perimeter 12, each of these numbers is therefore 'set apart' and 'Holy' to me.

A cube has 6 sides, a 7th is not included, therefore is 'set apart' and accounted 'Holy' to me, these things are associated with all that I find to be 'upright', 'foursquare' and 'eternal'.

I have 10 fingers (digits) if I assign each a value of .7 (seven tenths) the sum of the 10 digits is 7, equally divided, 3.5 (three and a half) on one hand, and 3.5 (three and one half) on the other hand, 7 equal halves on either hand. More on this latter.

If I successively add the sum of my 10 digits, as 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 the sum is 55, lifting up my hands I 'see' 55, when I was a lad of 10, my 2 open hands expressed my years, and yet again at 55, of course that is not all the numbers I am able to now 'see' in these old hands.

If I progressively multiply my ten digits, 1 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 6 x 7 x 8 x 9 x 10, the product is 3,628,800 (three million six hundred twenty eight thousand eight hundred)
the exact number of minutes in 360 weeks, (I account each equal. per Lev 19:35-6 and Deut.25:13-16 and Prov. 11:1, 20:10)
that is 360 divisions of 168 hours, or conversely 168 divisions of 360 hours,
beginning from the first hour of the first day, 360 hours fulfills 15 days.
7 lines of 15 days make 15 weeks or 105 days totaling 2520 hours,
'setting apart', and 'hallowing' the 7th part, even the 15 'set apart' 'Holy' days, there remains 6 lines, or faces of 360 hours totaling 2160 hours,
thus 7 faces with 7 circles of hours,
What are these seven circles of hours? Seven eyes upon the plummet in the hand of Zerubabble.

It's extremely difficult for me to answer this without the use of sarcasm, ridicule or mockery, but I'll try.

I have some questions.

First, is the '3-4-5 rule' mentioned in the Bible? If so, where?

Second, where did you come up with the value of .7 which you assigned to each of your fingers? Is that in the Bible? Isn't this just a case of picking a number that will make things fit into your numerical schema?

Third, what is your justification for claiming that the cube's lack of a 7th side sets it apart, makes it holy, and therefore represents the qualities of uprightness, holiness and eternity?

Sensei Meela · 02-21-2005, 03:40 PM

Relevance? Point?

:huh:

02-21-2005, 06:58 AM	#14
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Number and Measure Thank you Clivedurdle, for your very astute observations, There has been and still is a general presumption on the part of men who -should- know better, that the Patriarch's of the faith were relatively ignorant and crude in their systems of measurements, while all evidence is that civilization had very early on developed some very sophisticated and precise systems of standards. Most now, because they have forgotten, and cannot discern the underlying mathematical and geometrical principals, have dismissed the cubit as being a crude and inaccurate measure, the length of any man's "arm from elbow to fingertip", whereas the evidence of Scripture demands it be as accurate as humanly possible. This supposition is as ignorant as supposing that the 'foot' measurement set by the U.S. Bureau of Standards is the length of anyone's foot. What my little exercise in finger multiplication was about, and is intended to demonstrate is, that although the division of hours into minutes and seconds is usually attributed to being introduced at a much latter time in history, the concepts, indeed even the very same precise numbers were part and parcel of the math being used from before the time of Noah.

02-21-2005, 12:42 PM	#16
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Number and Measure I am satisfied to find honest individuals that are capable of exercising independent thought and reason I certainly do not expect to find here anyone that supports all of my conclusions, (that would be a miracle indeed) As I do not presume to ask this of even those who I account as my fellow Believers, brethren, and members of my own Faith. Rather than entertain questions of "what ifs" to which definitive answers will remain unavailable, The purpose of this thread is to entertain a serious discussion pertaining to the text of Genesis 6:15 and the length of the cubit. When I pose the question, "How many fingerbreadths are in your cubit?" or "How many handbreadths are in your cubit?" no one need be shy in admitting to not having any certain answer, the very question is set to get honest men seeking for the correct answer, and this is in itself honorable even if a man should perish before attaining any certain knowledge. Come on folks, its not all that difficult, clues are all over the place, even in your own hands, make a 'wild guess', you will be none the worse than remaining in your ignorance, and at least you will have established a place to begin your reasoning from. A good teacher does not teach answers, but poses questions, and encourages the listeners to find the correct answers. This much I will tell beyond the valuing of one fingerbreadth at the value of seven tenths, I employ three lengths of cubits, and three lengths of measuring reeds, all use the fingerbreadth as the common unit and therefore agree at common multiples, all are precision instruments whose divisions are based in time and geometry, As three hundred and sixty weeks has precisely two hundred seventeen million seven hundred twenty eight thousand seconds, not one more, not one less, so my measuring instruments are as precise. -Zerubabble-

02-21-2005, 03:06 PM	#18
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Number and Measure Other than in the most basic laws of geometry, the units of measure that I employ have no correlation to any Egyptian units of measure, nor to the mathematics of the pyramids, Which to my people are the symbol of slavery, corrupt power, profane ignorance and the abominations of idolatry; Having escaped therefrom, No faithful Israelite desires to turn thither again. Men have made 'cubits' of many differing lengths, kings and tyrants have lengthened, or shortened their 'cubits' and 'reeds' at will. Make for yourself a cubit of any length you will, I will measure it with my measure, a bruised reed, yet unbroken in the hand of my Elohim, Whose measure will never change nor vary. -Zerubabble-

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02-21-2005, 10:32 AM	#15
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Thank you, but be careful, I don't support all your conclusions! A slight side question, what if John instead of "Word was God" had written "Number was God, or both?

02-21-2005, 02:07 PM	#17
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Stecchini Is this about correct?

02-21-2005, 03:40 PM	#20
Sensei Meela Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: AZ, u.s.a. Posts: 1,202	Relevance? Point? :huh:

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