SkepticalThinker

I have not yet read the books Reinventing Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk) or Fabricating Jesus (or via: amazon.co.uk), but according to the many reviews on Amazon they absolutely destroy the ideas put out by skeptical authors like Robert M. Price, Bart Ehrman, and James Tabor. I doubt this is the case considering the fact I've read some apologetic works in the past that have gotten rave reviews, but then I subsequently found them to be highly flawed (funny how almost every apologetic book on amazon has a high rating). I'm thinking of checking them out soon, but was wondering if any of you had read either of them and if so what criticisms you have with the arguments put forward in each respective book.

Thanks,

ST

Doug Shaver

Those are probably the same people who think McDowell and Strobel are brilliant scholars.

Toto

I read the excerpt from Reinventing Jesus on Amazon, and it seems like a fairly simplistic introduction to Biblical criticism. It contains the bald assertion that "the arguments of the skeptics have been amply answered." It appears to want spoon feed the faithful some answers to the questions that they are most likely to hear, without getting them to think too hard. (This book is highly recommended by JP Holding.)

The excerpt from Fabricating Jesus, on the other hand, actually discusses some issues sin an intelligent fashion, and looks like it might be worth reading.

neilgodfrey

"Worth reading"? Okay -- if only to see the ILlogic at the base of fundamentalist "scholarship". I purchased "Fabricating Jesus" on the strength of other comments like Toto's only to find it the most abysmal hash of mush that avoided as totally as possible any of the scholarly studies of the 'historical Jesus'. I really had been looking forward to some real nitty gritty from the other camp to engage with. But Craig Evans maybe allows a few lines here and there of 'critical scholarship', only to tag them at length with his own attacks and ramblings against "those who never quite got it" in the first place.

I've discussed a few of his chapters here, and will probably add another chapter review or two there soon.

Neil

SkepticalThinker

Neil, thanks for the link. I'm sure your chapter reviews will help me decide whether to purchase the book or not.

thedistillers

All the people who attack Bart Ehrman either 1) have never read him 2) misrepresent him.

I have no interest reading a book written by Daniel B. Wallace.

As for the other book, after reading the second Amazon review, I see no reason to think Evans has anything new to offer. Apologists establish the "realibility" of the Gospels with bogus criterias.

neilgodfrey

Evans has a chapter in which he argues that Jesus could not have been a Cynic because he quotes so much from Jewish scriptures and Jewish religious ideas, and has nothing comparable to the more extreme sayings of Greek Cynics. One would never know from Evans that anyone has argued for a "Jewish Cynic" Jesus.

He has a section on Pilate in which he tendentiously uses sources to show that he really was the basically nice and pliable fellow as portrayed in the gospels after all.

He makes much of the "fact" that Jesus does not use magic herbs or rings or incantations to perform his magic tricks, and that his miracles were so much bigger and more impressive than anything performed by his near contemporaries. And even uses the use of Jesus name in exorcisms by Christians and nonChristians long after his time as evidence of the reputation he had as a miracle worker.

And of course, if a gospel tells a miracle story with hints it is taken from a section of the OT, then that only goes to demonstrate how impressed contemporaries were by the miracles of Jesus.

Evans writes to comfort believers.

Neil

Toto

So the search for an intellectually respectable work of Christian apologetics continues, sort of like Diogenes in his barrel looking for an honest man?

neilgodfrey

On the historical existence of Jesus Evans writes: I'd forgotten all about the archaeological evidence for his existence till I read that. So you can get some idea of just how "powerful and persuasive" (Lee Strobel quote on the jacket) it is.

Neil

SkepticalThinker

Neil, you could possibly check out Reinventing Jesus. I'd be interested in reading your critiques of it, but I could see how you probably wouldn't want to spend your time reading something that is most likely going to turn out to be less than impressive.