Solo

Agreed. I think the more interesting question is whether the parables (in the form used in the gospels) originated with Mark rather than any Jesus' traditions that he worked with.

As the following table shows almost all Jesus parables in Mark are derived from Paul's sayings or allude to them. The two exceptions are the parables of the vineyard and the fig tree which clearly allude to the destruction of Judea / judgment over Israel as consequence of the killing of Jesus. All parabolic discourse in Mark is then demonstrably of post-Jesus provenance . The parables in Matt and Luke unknown through Mark would then likely originate with the two later gospellers 'imitating' Mark's Jesus style of speech.


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Mk 2:18-20 : Guests at bridegroom's feast
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Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and people came and said to him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?" And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
(The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.)

Ref. to Paul => 2 Cr 11:2 for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband.

(Please, note that the disciples in Mark are merely guests at the 'nuptials' !!!)

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Mk 2:21-22 : New cloth on old garment / New wine in old wineskins
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No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; if he does, the patch tears away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost, and so are the skins; but new wine is for fresh skins."

Ref.=> 2 Cr 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

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Mk 4:3-20 Parable of the sower
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"Listen! A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it. Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it had not much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil; and when the sun rose it was scorched, and since it had no root it withered away. Other seed fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain. And other seeds fell into good soil and brought forth grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."
And he said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."


(And when he was alone, those who were about him with the twelve asked him concerning the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven.")


And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them. And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."

Refs =>

Rom 10:15 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" (birds ate the seed...)

Gal 1:6-7 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. (rocky ground....)

Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. (thorns...)

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Mk 4:26 The Growing Seed
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And he said, "The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed upon the ground, and should sleep and rise night and day, and the seed should sprout and grow, he knows not how. The earth produces of itself, first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear. But when the grain is ripe, at once he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come."

Ref => 1 Cr 3:6-7 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.

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Mk 4:31-32 The mustard seed
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It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown upon the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth; yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes the greatest of all shrubs, and puts forth large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade."

Ref => 2 Cr 9:10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness.


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Mk 12:1-12 The wicked tenants / Mk 13:28-32 the fig tree
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As noted, these parables do not have Pauline reference


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Mk 13:33-37 The Watchful Porter
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Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come. It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. Watch therefore--for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning-- lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.

Ref => 1 Th 5:2-6 For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When people say, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.


Jiri

Vinnie

The simplest response is that parables occur independently in Q and predate both Mark and Q so no, Mark did not create them. I suppose GThomas can also be thrown into the mix. Mark is responsible for the narrative framework and chronology they are generally placed in, however. The historicity of any individual parable is a separate matter that has to be analyzed on a case by case basis.

Vinnie

Solo

I am not claiming that Mark "created" all the parables; I was suggesting that Mark might have pioneered the parabolic discourse in the gospels as the Pauline source material looks just too prominent in it. Naturally, this would invite another reality check with respect to Q. With Thomas' "living Jesus", I think the dependency of some of it on NT looks probable: Saying 13, e.g. modifies the "messiah" title that Peter bestows on Jesus in Mark. In a similar vein Gthomas truncates the vineyard parable to remove the "retribution" of the vineyard owner. Saying 64, the parable of the dinner seems to ad-lib on Mark 4:19. There are of course original parabolic images in GThomas, but again these are best seen as the creativity of the adepts who would "drink from Jesus' mouth" and become "he".

Regards,
Jiri

Vinnie

You will have to come up with more parallels and some correlation of exact wording. Since there are 7 Pauline letters and an entire gospel, it would seem statistically likely a few parallels are going to occur naturally. Oral tradition more than adequately accounts for any of the similarities you mentioned as well. That parables exist in several sources independently means Jesus uttered them or someone put them on his lips in the very early church and later authors invented more. The multiple attestation shows they were widespread and increases the possibility of parallels or allusions between Paul and Mark. The argument that they were all created is much harder to maintain. That Jesus simply spoke in parables is the simplest solution.

Vinnie

Solo

I am talking a creative adaptation of Paul by Mark, not copying. It is impossible - in this case even with God - to correlate textually gospel teachings of Paul and Mark's gospel - if the core of Mark is an allegorical rendering of those Pauline teachings. Who are those who were with Jesus and the twelve in Mark 4:10 and asked him about the parables ? And why would Mark insist that Jesus was alone when the query was launched ?

It is hard to credit statistics for similarities between the Pauline logia and Mark's parabolic speech. What would make Jesus so hyperconscious of the word about himself as in the sower parable ? What would e.g. prompt Jesus to refer to himself as 'bridegroom' obliquely ? I guess some people will tell you that we do not know and have no hope of knowing. But the problem is that Paul obssesses about his gospel and proposes to marry his congregation to Christ. So even if 2 Cor 11:2 uses aner and not nymphios to refer to Jesus as the object of ecstasy, the link is established by the sheer improbability of a plausible alternative.


and all I am saying is that that someone would be looking at a mode of speech and discourse for Jesus that had a 'track record' i.e. was already believed to have originated with Jesus in many communities.

I disputed the "independence" of GThomas and some of the other non-Markan ones seem derivatives or composites. The "bridegroom" cipher e.g. appears to have taken hold early in the communities and led to different parabolic plays: the ten virgins in Matt, the wedding feast in both Matt and Luke, the marriage at Cana in John.

The problem with multiple attestation is that it exists only in the mind of the believer. If Jesus says in Mark to an unknown and invisible group around himself that they know the mystery of the kingdom but the outsiders don't, and Matthew and Luke say that he said that to his disciples then it is not a multiple attestation of a Jesus saying but a theological argument that Matt and Luke have with Mark. Methinks, anyhow.

Jiri