gstafleu

There have been some discussions as to whether Mark portrays Jesus as the son of God. In the scene where Jesus is baptized by John the baptist we have:
This is not a slam-dunk as to whether Jesus is God's son (we don't quite know who the speaker is), but it goes in that direction. Has anybody ever suggested that this is an interpolation?

Also, it says "he saw heaven being torn open..." Are we to take it that only Jesus saw this dove-spirit and the surrounding bystanders did not?

Gerard Stafleu

hatsoff

I'm almost positive these verses are not missing from any ancient witnesses. As for the question of whether or not others saw, Mark is silent. He merely tells us that Jesus sees, and is driven into the desert by the Spirit-dove.

S.C.Carlson

According to David Ulansey, "The Heavenly Veil Torn: Mark's Cosmic 'Inclusio'," JBL 110 (1991): 123-5, Mark 1:10 is an integral part of the gospel:
It's a short piece, so read the whole thing.

gstafleu

Thanks for the link, very interesting. So we seem to have the following:

1) Jesus is declared "son of <Somebody>" in the beginning of Mark.
2) In a related (inclusio-wise) passage at the crucifixion, Jesus is declared "Son of God" by the centurion.
3) From this it seems fairly safe to conclude that the <Somebody> is God.

So what happens to the "Jesus is not Son of God in Mark" idea?

Gerard Stafleu

Nazaroo

The weakness of the piece is that only Israelites would be allowed entry to see the tapestry. So apparently, either only Israelites would be moved by the symbolism and connection between the 'opening of heaven' at the beginning and the tearing of the 'veil of the temple' at the end.

Unless again you posit an oral tradition (of gentiles being told hidden, perhaps forbidden mysteries of Judaism) subverting Judaean secret cultism.

I'd like to see someone make a case like that, something like popular books exposing freemasonry.

Solo

The Islamic tradition has Mohammed describe the appearance of the archangel Gabriel as in 'falaq-as-subh', in the 'tearing-of-darkness' (a traditional Arabic locution describing a sudden, blinding appearance of the sun in the sky, without the twilight of dawn).

Jiri

Steven Avery

Yep, you are correct. However when skeptics on IIDB spin interpolation theories there is no real concern about evidence. This one is actually far more sensible that the diverse interpolations of convenience that we were recently offered in Corinthians as a presumed fact to support a pre-existing theory. At least this one is contiguous in the beginning of a book so it is more conceptually feasible that what is usually floated here.

Still nonsense, against all hard evidence (as you point out).

Shalom,
Steven

gstafleu

That goes for the inner veil, which is why the article argues that the veil that tore was the outer veil. Apparently that veil was visible to everyone, the article says the centurion could have seen it.

Gerard Stafleu

Doug Shaver

I don't believe there is ever a reason to assume anything is an interpolation.

There might be a good reason to believe something is interpolated, but in that case, it not an assumption but an inference.

neilgodfrey

There appears little doubt that Homer's Iliad and Odyssey contain numerous interpolations. (Walker cites George M Bolling and Robert M Grant)

Interpolations are also found in Orpheus, Musaeus, Hippocrates, Aristophanes, Euripides and Thucydides. (Walker cites Grant and Maurer)

Also in the letters of the philosophers -- Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, Seneca -- by their followers. (Citing Stanley Stowers)

Early Christians interpolated Jewish writings. (e.g. The Testimonium Flavianum or at least part thereof; Celsus said Christians added to the Sibylline Oracles to provide pagan support for X'y, and also other Jewish writings like the Synagogal Prayers, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah and 4 Ezra.) -- Citing Meier, Eva Sanford, Solomon Zeitlin, Wallace-Hadrill, K A Olson, Grant, James Charlesworth, E P Sanders and A I Baumgarten and Alan Mendelson)

Romans 3.13-18 was incorporated into most LXX manuscripts of Psalm 13 (Ps 14 in Hebrew bible) -- citing O'Neill

Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, claimed "heretics" had both added to and deleted from his letters. (Grant)

Irenaeus expressed fears his writings would be interpolated.

Rufinus claimed many Greek patristic writings had been interpolated (Grant)

Marcion believed the letters of Paul and gospel of Luke had been heavily interpolated.

Many scholars see both the Pentateuch and gospels as being built up layer by layer. (e.g. Genesis based on JE with P later added)

2 Peter is an expansion on Jude, and the longer recension of Epistles of Ignatius; ..... many other examples.... some more obvious well-known ones: the adulterous woman episode in gospel of John; the longer ending of Mark; perhaps final chapter of John; the Western text of the Gospels and Acts -- note the "western non-interpolations")

Interpolations are not easy today given nature of printing technology, but the evidence does point to them being part of the literary culture in the ancient world. It would be naive to assume an absence of interpolations, particularly in controversial religious literature.

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com