naltariel

I was a former Christian, and to the world at large, still am. There are many reasons why I found Christianity is illogical and inhumane; one of the them is the concept of Original Sin.

I have never thought about it until I read a certain chapter assigned by my Professor last year. It is about conditions in which someone can be declared guilty (or in Christian’s term: have sinned). I only remember the main ideas, and English isn’t my first language so I am sorry if I phrase things wrong. Also, it doesn’t take any book or essay to see how illogical the whole concept of Original Sin is. Here’s why:

1. Someone is guilty if s/he has done something wrong. In the concept of Original Sin, we are sinful even before we haven’t been born because we’re Adam’s descendant.

2. Someone is NOT guilty if s/he does something s/he can’t help but do (that’s why we send people to therapy). Original Sin dogma states that we cannot be not-sinning, therefore, demanding us not to sin is illogical.

3. Someone is not guilty if he does something he doesn’t know is wrong. So I really don’t understand the concept of accidental or inadvertent sins in the OT.

4. We are NOT guilty for our ancestor’s fault. DUH!

5. Some theologians argue that the word “sin” means an arrow miss the target. I want to ask you, if ALL of human beings miss the target, then who’s at fault? The target maker or the human? If Jesus is sinless, it MIGHT be coincidental. Even a blind man can shot thousands arrows and there might be one which hit the target precisely. How idiot is someone who is perfect to ask all his imperfect creatures to be perfect like him?

That said, even the concept of free will is moot, because as I point out, we DO NOT choose to sin.

PS: I don’t think ancient Christian had the concept of free will. I look for it in the Bible and there is little to none quotes to back it up. It seems to me it emerged in modern era in response to the world’s fight for freedom.

Magus55

Yes, you are born with a flaw because of man's rebellion. Kinda like being born with a genetic, terminal disease like Huntington's.

And here is your problem. Yes Original sin means we can't not sin - its part of our corrupted nature. But where did you get the idea that God demands us to be able to not sin? God knows fully well that humans can't not sin. He doesn't expect you to be able to live a sinless life. What He does expect is that you try to not sin, and seek forgiveness when you fail. He wants you to repent and turn away from your inborn sinful nature - not embrace it.

What accidental sins in the OT? God gave the Israelites laws. They knew exactly what God wanted from them. And Romans even states that Jews are hold accountable because they do have the law. they know what they shouldn't be doing, but they do it anyway.

You're right, you're not.

Jesus isn't sinless by coincidence. Jesus is sinless because He wasn't born with an earthly father. Sin is passed through the father. Since Jesus' father is God, he never inherited original sin. And as I said above, God doesn't expect you to automatically wake up and be perfect. Its an ongoing process that believers go through in their walk with God. We strive to be like Him, but He knows it will take time, and we will still fail.

I disagree. While unbelievers don't believe sin exists, you do choose to sin in your everyday life. In a given situation, you may have the opportunity to lie or cuss. You can very much choose not to do either. If you do end up lying or cussing, then you are choosing to sin.

liamo

I thought Jesus was sinless because Mary was...
In any case, would a cloned woman be sinless then?

Godless Wonder

Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

So Jesus breaks the sabbath, and thus a commandment, but because he's God, it's ok.

Matthew 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

Matthew 21:3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

So he steals too. Breaking another commandment. Again, ok because he's God.

Honor thy father and Mother?

Luke: 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Another commandment falls by the wayside.

Lying?

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

16:018 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Believers are not immune to cyanide, I'm sorry, that is a lie.

John, 7:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

A deceitful lie, as shown in the next 2 lines.

7:9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

7:10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

But, he's God, so it's ok.

Magus55

Mary was not sinless EVER. That is a lie and false doctrine created by the Pope.

Magus55

The Sabbath is the only one of the 10 commandments not reaffirmed in the NT. It doesn't apply under the New Covenant, so no He did not break it.

It isn't stealing. Jesus created the freakin thing. He owns it by merit of being the creator. And you are assuming that the people housing the animals would actually object to the Lord borrowing it.

Actually, the word hate in this verse is better translated as like less. And how is that breaking a commandment? You can not like someone and still show respect for them. All that verse means is Jesus should come first above all else. It doesn't mean don't respect your parents.

Jesus was not speaking to everyone. He was talking to the Apostles. This was after His ressurection, and some people didn't believe Him. Those that did believe, were given special abilities. Jesus didn't say everyone will be able to do that.

Paul actually shows that the gifts were given to the Apostles that believed because in Acts 28, hes bitten by a poisonous snake and it doesn't hurt him.

I go not up yet. Jesus didn't go when the rest of them went. He went later. Not a lie.

liamo

Fair enough. Now the other question still stands: could a cloned woman be sinless?

Liam

Godless Wonder

IOW, since he's God, it's ok.
IOW, since he's God, it's ok.
I'll let that stand, you may be right.
What makes you think that? How were the disciples to know this wasn't meant for everyone? Trial and error? "Oops, he died. I guess the poison/snake thing was only meant for us." You're adding more to the words than are there.

Lots of people are bitten by (certain types of) snakes and live. Lots of people don't drink cyanide.
Some early manuscripts don't contain this "yet" In any case, he went up "in secret", so it's clear he didn't want it known. Telling a half-truth with the intention to deceive is lying.

My main point of this is that you can't have it both ways, you can't say "Jesus is sinless because He wasn't born with an earthly father." the implication that the sinlessness is evidence of Godliness, and then when sins are pointed out, say, it's ok if he did these things because he was God. If you take the 2nd approach, as you have for the sabbath-breaking, and for the donkey-stealing, then the sinlessness can't be used to show that Jesus was so sinless he must be God, because he wasn't sinless.

Mageth

Paul actually shows that the gifts were given to the Apostles that believed because in Acts 28, hes bitten by a poisonous snake and it doesn't hurt him.

Wow. I didn't know my brother was an apostle! He was bitten on the leg by a copperhead when he was a toddler, and suffered no ill effects at all!

Dr Rick

...maybe he wasn't born with an earthly father, either; vulnerability to snake bites is passed through the father, you know.