vid

I have trouble following this sentence in English translation of Dialogue with Trypho:

Does Justin say he erred in past by holding adoptionist position?

aa5874

It is the other way. Justin Martyr appears to be admitting or conceding that he cannot prove that Jesus was divine and pre-existed.

dalehileman

Adoptionist, ok

http://onelook.com/?w=adoptionist&ls=a

but pre-existed

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/pre-existence

...leaves me wondering sometimes if TOE won't eventually demonstrate the confusion and contradiction entailed by "deep" philosophical problems is dispatched to matters of semantics

andrewcriddle

I think that Justin is saying that even if Trypho is not convinced of Jesus' preexistence he should still accept Justin's arguments that Jesus is the Messiah.

Andrew Criddle

GakuseiDon

It may be worth while to include Trypho's comments before and after:

And Trypho said, "We have heard what you think of these matters. Resume the discourse where you left off, and bring it to an end. For some of it appears to me to be paradoxical, and wholly incapable of proof. For when you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, then that He submitted to be born and become man, yet that He is not man of man, this [assertion] appears to me to be not merely paradoxical, but also foolish."

And I replied to this, "I know that the statement does appear to be paradoxical, especially to those of your race, who are ever unwilling to understand or to perform the [requirements] of God, but [ready to perform] those of your teachers, as God Himself declares. Now assuredly, Trypho," I continued,"[the proof] that this man is the Christ of God does not fail, though I be unable to prove that He existed formerly as Son of the Maker of all things, being God, and was born a man by the Virgin. But since I have certainly proved that this man is the Christ of God, whoever He be, even if I do not prove that He pre-existed, and submitted to be born a man of like passions with us, having a body, according to the Father's will; in this last matter alone is it just to say that I have erred, and not to deny that He is the Christ, though it should appear that He was born man of men, and[nothing more] is proved[than this], that He has become Christ by election. For there are some, my friends," I said, "of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men; with whom I do not agree, nor would I, even though most of those who have [now] the same opinions as myself should say so; since we were enjoined by Christ Himself to put no faith in human doctrines, but in those proclaimed by the blessed prophets and taught by Himself."

And Trypho said, "Those who affirm him to have been a man, and to have been anointed by election, and then to have become Christ, appear to me to speak more plausibly than you who hold those opinions which you express. For we all expect that Christ will be a man [born] of men, and that Elijah when he comes will anoint him. But if this man appear to be Christ, he must certainly be known as man[born] of men; but from the circumstance that Elijah has not yet come, I infer that this man is not He [the Christ]."

aa5874

So, Justin has a major problem. His Jesus was NOT born man of men. Justin's Jesus is a fictional/mythical character born out of Isaiah 7.14.

"Dialogue with Trypho" XLIII Justin's Jesus could NOT have been born as described.