John A. Broussard

Because he has the patience of Job.

Remember Job? He was written up in the bible.

He was the one who god played tricks on like killing off his family and covering him with boils, but Job didn't give up. He kept on groveling.

I suspect that having one's family killed off and being aflicted with boils would make a lot of us stop trying to convince you that Babylon can't be rebuilt (or was it that it can be rebuilt?).

So maybe we really don't have the patience of Job.

Jack the Bodiless

mata leao:

Babylon was an empire, but Tyre never was. A sometimes-independent city-state, even occasionally ruled by a "king", does not constitute an "empire".

Neither Babylon nor Tyre fell when they were "prophesied" to fall, and no amount of apologetic revisionism will ever change that. Furthermore, both "exist" in a manner which satisfies the specific criteria mentioned in the relevant prophecies, and no amount of apologetic revisionism will ever change THAT either.

The time has come for you to simply accept the obvious truth: that these prophecies failed.

mata leao

ohh Jack, the arrogance of the atheist mind.....this is why atheism is a marginalized, "loser" fringe group! TYre was a sea going power akin to the island of Britain: where Jack, was that sea power after tyre fell? where is it now? where is tyre's navy? tyre today doesnt even have an armed patrol boat squadron! no amount of atheist semantic casuistry will show that militray power of tyre was not destroyed.

Sauron

None of which is relevant.

The prophecy did not say that Tyre would wane and become an ordinary place.

The prophecy said that Tyre would be (a) utterly destroyed and (b) scraped clean like the top of a rock, (c) by Nebuchadnezzar, and (d) never found again.

Neither a, b, c nor d ever came true.

mata leao

wrong. read it again carefully. The empire of Tyre was utterly destroyed. It was scraped clean like a rock (in fact, excavzations by archaeologists have found part of the palace of tyre by excavating those rocks) and the empire of tyre has never been found again. TYre lost sovereignty of the mainland empire and then of its island fortress. And the clear strategic and tactical ambiguity of nebuchednezzar, and "waves"(of attackers) and "many" nations fits the actual developments perfectly. Prove: that Ezekiel, being a captive/exile in Babylon did not have a motive to hedge his references by telescoping the mechanism to avoid insulting neb and prove that ezekiel did not have a reason to avoid telegraphing to the sea going empire of tyre that its demise would come from a Greek land army via building of a causeway ( a greek land army that would require a careful series of military alliances) , if you study the greek campaigns carefully you will see how it is that it would have been very critical for Tyre to know in advance how the greeks would attack it. REmember: a greek land army had to get there first! The Burden of Proof shifts to you if your rebuttal is that "Ezekiel was not thinking these things".....prove it! Also: prove exactly how much info and in what detail GOD actually gave Ezekiel as opposed to John in Revelation, or Jonah as to Ninevah, or Daniel. TYre was a sea going empire that ruled the waves of the mediterranean and much of it beyond. Again, jehovah God is not prophetically trucking in humiliated vassal states that have to pay tribute to their suzereins and have been divested of their fighting fleet. Ezekiel's prophecy was a military battle plan being telegraphed in advance to the most powerful sea power in the region. Thus, some tactical and strategic ambiguity should be expected. For example, who is Gog and MaGog in prophecy? Nations from the North of Isreal, draw a line on a globe, extending far north of Isreal and see which nations you find. KIngs of the East? Follow a line from the oil fields of the middle east through the Karakorum highway and see which nations could be the KIngs of the east. The way I see it, a, b, c d came true like clockwork. You are substituting gentile thinking and gentile words for prophetic hebrew thinking and prophetic hebrew words. Hebraic battle images often read like ancient victory dipthongs and epic poems of heroic national ascendancy or tragic national humiliation. This is the way the ancients talked and thought. Tyre had alliances as well, tyre also had the sealift capability to move allied ground troops to block a greek force moving overland(a much much smaller greek force by the way). p.s. it is relevant, it is all relevant, every word of everything i said, was relevant, in the debate, unfortunately the debate we werent able to have.....when you concede point 1 then we can talk!

Sauron

I already read it. re-reading a mistake isn't going to help.

1. Tyre was not an empire.
2. The city was not totally destroyed - not then, not ever.
3. The details of the prophecy did not take place as described.
4. Game, set, match. :rolling:

Interesting claim. Let's see your proof.

1. Tyre was not an empire.
2. The prophecy did not say "you will lose your empire" anyhow. It was a prediction of destruction for the city -- which did not happen.

1. Tyre did not have an empire;
2. The mainland section was part of the city of Tyre - the older suburbs;
3. The city stood for centuries after Ezekiel's prophecy as an important regional trading port.

What evidence do you have that Nebuchadnezzar was ambiguous in these respects?

No, actually they don't.

I don't have to.
You are the one with the affirmative claim, not me.

You have not shown that any telescoping mechanism existed. Of course, to do that, you'd actually have to prove your earlier list of unsupported claims. No one is holding their breath.

No, the burden of proof is always on you, the affirmative.

The rest of your post is aluminum-hat-UFO nonsense.

mata leao

ahh yes, the same aluminun foil nonsense about the prophecy of the Israelites having their ancient city of Jerusalem restored! It is too bad Sauron that you refuse to concede on reasonable points reasonably established. I met the burden of proof on point one and I established it. You are the one stalling, why I dont know. I was an "all U.S." Debate champion and I often conceded points just to get into the meat of a good debate. Pay my fee and get this debate a "formal one" with sane moderation and established victory conditions and perhaps we can actually debate. Remember: Hitler, Napoleon and the Egyptians in 48,67 and 73 lost in large part because they war gamed with their own yes men......hint: wargame with professionals.

Sauron

Opening another can of prophetic nonsense? But you already have two open cans already; Tyre and Babylon. What's more, you have unfinished business there; do you plan to support your list of claims?

This week?
This year?
Ever?
:rolling:

No, you did not. You made several factual mistakes, and still haven't linked general claims to the specific person Ezekiel.

You're going to have to provide proof of any debate championship. Your performance in this debate is so appallingly bad that I'm simply not going to take your word for it.

Unnecessary - and I certainly wouldn't pay any fees for your (ahem) debating skills. We can actually debate here - if you'd just stop the stalling.

Hint1: support your previous claims.
Hint2: try a writing class; your sentences are rambling too much.

Sauron

Huh?

Oh, please.

I inserted duplicate above in my post because I double-posted my response by accident. And once a response is posted, the user cannot delete their own response.

mata leao

Lee Merill, excellent job , you pointed out many excellent arguments!