Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darklighter · 01-15-2009, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickpecoraro

Concerning the incident with Jesus being alone with the Samaritan woman at the well. It would seem to me to be a sin to be alone and speak to a strange woman at mid day when there wouldn't be any other people coming to the well. If you remember Joseph and Potifer's wife, they were alone when she tried to seduce him and then she accused him of rape when he wouldn't have sex with her. The Rabbis expanded on the incident involving Joseph in Genesis to create rules of conduct with strange women.
This well meeting with the Samaritan woman smells like a fabrication by a Gentile who was not aware of Jewish customs involving conduct with strange women.

[I got your point Darklighter and I elaborated on your good comment. I hope you don't mind]

nick pecoraro

Right on. The woman already had two strikes against her 1. She was a woman and 2. She was a Samaritan. You could also throw in that she was known for being a "loose" woman in that she wasn't married to the man she lived with. It was customary that male Jews didn't speak with women in public or even be seen with them, let alone Samaritan women, so the story could have been included to specifically express opposition to those kinds of prejudices. That is one positive effect that Christian theology had, although it could be argued that there was some backsliding on that in the epistles of Paul and others that came later.

Memebrain · 01-15-2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Mark 7:24-30 (New International Version)

The Faith of a Syrophoenician Woman
24Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre.[a] He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret. 25In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an evil[b] spirit came and fell at his feet. 26The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.

27"First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

28"Yes, Lord," she replied, "but even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs."

29Then he told her, "For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter."

30She went home and found her child lying on the bed, and the demon gone.

Almost everyone in Jesus' culture was equally racist/ethnocentric, so it is sort of useless to judge someone in a different culture by the moral standards of our own time and place. Or else Abraham Lincoln was also racist SOB.

But it shows that Jesus wasn't the kind of person that most people make him out to be today. I don't think that Jesus was any more racist than any other Jew back then and I don't care. I'm more interested in how he compares to the "gentle Jesus meek and mild" persona that's popular now.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-15-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memebrain

Mark 7: 24-30.

Was Jesus a racist for referring to Gentiles as dogs and is he an idiot for being outwitted by a "dog" :huh:.

:devil1:

In order to insure that people are really answering the question you wish to to have answered, you really need to define what you mean both by "idiot" and by "racists", as well as what you think the difference is between a "racist idiot" and any other kinds of idiots in existence.

You might also want to look into what it was that was thought by contemporaries of Jesus (and within 1st century Judaisms) to constitute or be indicative of "racism" and "idiocy" to insure that your question -- and the answers you receive in reply to it -- do not suffer from cultural idolatry and woeful anachronism.

So I wonder if you'd be so kinds as to do so?

In the meantime, perhaps you'll be good enough to let us know what it is you are up to in asking the poll question that you present to us.

Jeffrey

Darklighter · 01-15-2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memebrain

But it shows that Jesus wasn't the kind of person that most people make him out to be today. I don't think that Jesus was any more racist than any other Jew back then and I don't care. I'm more interested in how he compares to the "gentle Jesus meek and mild" persona that's popular now.

The popular perception of Jesus is idealized and is culled from conflicting accounts of his personality. For example, Luke's Jesus is pretty much in line with the popular perception i.e. cool, calm, virtually devoid of negative emotion. Whereas Mark presents him as a bit of an emotional hot-head. You can compare their respective accounts of the Passion to get a perspective. It's like reading about two different individuals going through the same situation. Compare Jesus' last words while on the cross. In Mark Jesus pleads: "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?" No trace of such emotionality in Luke though, after graciously forgiving his persecutors, and blessing the evildoer, he says, "Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit." The difference in tone is evident throughout Luke and Mark. And then toss in Matthew's Jesus who is also different from Lukes and Marks (and also seems insistant on advocating adherence to Mosaic Law) and it becomes impossible to paint a definate picture of Jesus' personality.

Sorry I'm rambling now...

Joan of Bark · 01-15-2009, 07:43 PM

Jesus was a Jew whose message was meant only for other Jews.

From Matthew 15:

Quote:

21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Memebrain · 01-15-2009, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Jesus was a Jew whose message was meant only for other Jews.

From Matthew 15:

Quote:

21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

It's ironic that most Christians are not "children of Israel". How do they interpret this passage to cope with the cognitive dissonance?

ApostateAbe · 01-15-2009, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memebrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Jesus was a Jew whose message was meant only for other Jews.

From Matthew 15:

It's ironic that most Christians are not "children of Israel". How do they interpret this passage to cope with the cognitive dissonance?

You might ask one of them.

Analyst · 01-15-2009, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memebrain

Mark 7: 24-30.

Was Jesus a racist for referring to Gentiles as dogs and is he an idiot for being outwitted by a "dog"

Since 'Jesus' never existed you are listening to a Greek describe what he thinks a Jew might have said. A pointless argument indeed.

ApostateAbe · 01-16-2009, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Analyst

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memebrain

Mark 7: 24-30.

Was Jesus a racist for referring to Gentiles as dogs and is he an idiot for being outwitted by a "dog"

Since 'Jesus' never existed you are listening to a Greek describe what he thinks a Jew might have said. A pointless argument indeed.

This is an especially bad place to bring up the point that Jesus was a fictional Greek invention, because your position lacks evidence to start with, but now we will be left wondering why a Greek author would put a Greek character in a humiliating situation and encourage intolerance of Greeks.

Roger Pearse · 01-16-2009, 12:25 AM

I wondered if any of you sceptics would question whether the recently invented term 'racism' was really a Universal Law of Morality (whether it is or not), and whether we should conform to this demand of us. But it seems that scepticism of contemporary fads and slogans isn't something people think about.

At all events, condemning people who lived before the political left thought this one up seems a bit daft to me. No doubt everyone posting in this forum is a scumbag (including me) because we haven't conformed to some demand that someone will invent ca. 2066?

View Poll Results: Was Jesus a racist idiot?
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01-16-2009, 12:25 AM	#20
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I wondered if any of you sceptics would question whether the recently invented term 'racism' was really a Universal Law of Morality (whether it is or not), and whether we should conform to this demand of us. But it seems that scepticism of contemporary fads and slogans isn't something people think about. At all events, condemning people who lived before the political left thought this one up seems a bit daft to me. No doubt everyone posting in this forum is a scumbag (including me) because we haven't conformed to some demand that someone will invent ca. 2066?

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