Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sven · 12-14-2004, 06:28 AM

In another thread in BC&H jbernier wrote:

Quote:

The decision to not strike back as the antidote to the human condition is so opposed to how humans normally respond that I am convinced that such a revelation can only come from outside the human.

and used this as an argument that the gospels include divine revelation, leading him to Christianity. (please go there to see his entire argument in case I misrepresent him in some way)

I'm sure that I've heard somewhere in this forum before that the morals of the gospels can all be traced back to older sources. Is this also the case for this example? On which source was this idea based, that is, who came up with it when?

Hope you can help.

BTW, I'm not trying to refute his argument, I'm only interested in this topic.

Daniel · 12-14-2004, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

In another thread in BC&H jbernier wrote:

and used this as an argument that the gospels include divine revelation, leading him to Christianity. (please go there to see his entire argument in case I misrepresent him in some way)

I'm sure that I've heard somewhere in this forum before that the morals of the gospels can all be traced back to older sources. Is this also the case for this example? On which source was this idea based, that is, who came up with it when?

Hope you can help.

BTW, I'm not trying to refute his argument, I'm only interested in this topic.

This website
http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_out...att/mt7_12.htm has a list of people who said basically what he talked about in his quote.

Sven · 12-14-2004, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

This website
http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_out...att/mt7_12.htm has a list of people who said basically what he talked about in his quote.

I'm not sure if jbernier was really talking about the Golden rule. But thanks anyway.

Here's an additional quote from the thread I linked above (Did I mention that you should read up on it in case I misrepresent him?

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

The cross, I would argue, reveals a means to rupture the cycle of internal rivalry that is resolved by external persecution. That means is to identify with the victim that does not strike back - that is, with Christ.

Mathetes · 12-14-2004, 10:16 AM

Not sure if this is exactly what you want, but Buddhism has always promoted nonviolence, and it is some 600 years older than Christianity. When Yahweh was cheerleading the Hebrews into slaughtering their neighbors, Buddhism was already teaching pacifism. You can start in Wikipedia and follow the links.

Another school of thought that predates Christianity are the Greek Cynic philosophers, and they are essentially pacifists, although maybe on the anarchistic/apathetic side.

Gooch's dad · 12-14-2004, 10:54 AM

Hillel the Elder is well known for his proclamation on the Golden Rule, but, not surprisingly, he also was big on meekness:

Quote:

The exhortation to love peace emanated from Hillel's most characteristic traits — from that meekness and mildness which had become proverbial, as is seen from the saying: "Let a man be always humble and patient like Hillel, and not passionate like Shammai" (Shab. 31a; Ab. R. N. xv.). Hillel's gentleness and patience are illustrated in an anecdote which relates how two men made a wager on the question whether Hillel could be made angry. Though they questioned him and made insulting allusions to his Babylonian origin, they were unsuccessful in their attempt (ib.).

Mathetes · 12-14-2004, 11:31 AM

I don't think the guy that Sven quoted is suggesting that Jesus invented the Golden Rule. If this is the case, that guy needs to go back to Sunday School, because the Golden Rule appears in Leviticus 19, 18. Of course, the "neighbor" was supposed to be a fellow Hebrew, never a foreigner.

Many other civilizations also "found" the Golden Rule on their own.

Daniel · 12-14-2004, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

I'm not sure if jbernier was really talking about the Golden rule. But thanks anyway.

Here's an additional quote from the thread I linked above (Did I mention that you should read up on it in case I misrepresent him?

)

How's this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

"You christians have a saying that goes something like this: 'Don't resist a man who insults you; even if he strikes you, offer your other cheek as well.' This is nothing new, and its been better said by others, especially by Plato, who ascribes the following to Socrates in the Crito...'ts never right to do wrong and never right to take revenge; nor is it right to give evil for evil, or in the case of one who has suffered some injury, to attempt to get even...'"

The quote is from Contra Celsus by Origen.

Sven · 12-15-2004, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

How's this?
The quote is from Contra Celsus by Origen.

Thanks! :thumbs:
This seems to fit perfectly.

Vorkosigan · 12-15-2004, 04:45 AM

it's all taken from previous Greco-Roman sources. At JesusMysteries now there's a guy posting a summary of a study of Matt's beatitudes showing that each is mentioned in numerous prior and contemporary pagan sources.

Vorkosigan

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-14-2004, 10:16 AM	#4
Mathetes Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spaniard living in Silicon Valley Posts: 539	Not sure if this is exactly what you want, but Buddhism has always promoted nonviolence, and it is some 600 years older than Christianity. When Yahweh was cheerleading the Hebrews into slaughtering their neighbors, Buddhism was already teaching pacifism. You can start in Wikipedia and follow the links. Another school of thought that predates Christianity are the Greek Cynic philosophers, and they are essentially pacifists, although maybe on the anarchistic/apathetic side.

12-14-2004, 11:31 AM	#6
Mathetes Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spaniard living in Silicon Valley Posts: 539	I don't think the guy that Sven quoted is suggesting that Jesus invented the Golden Rule. If this is the case, that guy needs to go back to Sunday School, because the Golden Rule appears in Leviticus 19, 18. Of course, the "neighbor" was supposed to be a fellow Hebrew, never a foreigner. Many other civilizations also "found" the Golden Rule on their own.

12-15-2004, 04:45 AM	#9
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	it's all taken from previous Greco-Roman sources. At JesusMysteries now there's a guy posting a summary of a study of Matt's beatitudes showing that each is mentioned in numerous prior and contemporary pagan sources. Vorkosigan

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.