Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ratel · 10-01-2012, 05:29 PM

This is not about the famous failure of Yahweh to prevail against the Canaanite tribes whose maryannu drove iron chariots chronicled for us in Judges, rather, I'd like to inquire as to your opinion about what these "iron chariots" were. I doubt that the steeds of the late bronze early iron age could have pulled a vehicle made of iron, or even plated with iron as a type of armor. Such armor would be relatively useless anyway, since it would only protect the driver's lower extremities and would have left vulnerable the horses entirely. I can't imagine fully barded chargers pulling an iron clad chariot either. Any such solutions would have slowed the aparatus down considerably I would think.

The only solution that suggests itself to me is that the chariots were held together with iron fastenings or that they had scythes attached to them or something.

Perhaps "of iron" is simply a way of saying that the teams of warriors driving them were "quite tough" "professional soldiers" or something. Does anyone have an insight into this passage?

outhouse · 10-01-2012, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratel

This is not about the famous failure of Yahweh to prevail against the Canaanite tribes whose maryannu drove iron chariots chronicled for us in Judges, rather, I'd like to inquire as to your opinion about what these "iron chariots" were. I doubt that the steeds of the late bronze early iron age could have pulled a vehicle made of iron, or even plated with iron as a type of armor. Such armor would be relatively useless anyway, since it would only protect the driver's lower extremities and would have left vulnerable the horses entirely. I can't imagine fully barded chargers pulling an iron clad chariot either. Any such solutions would have slowed the aparatus down considerably I would think.

The only solution that suggests itself to me is that the chariots were held together with iron fastenings or that they had scythes attached to them or something.

Perhaps "of iron" is simply a way of saying that the teams of warriors driving them were "quite tough" "professional soldiers" or something. Does anyone have an insight into this passage?

you think it could be 100% mythology ???

and Canaanite became Israelites and were never fought against by any Israeli

the proper way to get your answer is to look when judges was composed, and or compiled and or redacted with the iorn chariot verses. Then look at who in the levent had chariots at that time that had any iron at all, and that would be the ones used in the legends.

outhouse · 10-01-2012, 06:32 PM

heres a hint

look for 6th century BC chariots in and around Babylon cultures

Ratel · 10-01-2012, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

heres a hint

look for 6th century BC chariots in and around Babylon cultures

Are you referring to something specific?

Toto · 10-01-2012, 08:28 PM

There's an article behind a paywall

Did the Canaanites Really Have Iron Chariots?

Quote:

As Israel spread through the Promised Land, she faced Canaanite kings whose armies had “iron chariots” (rekeb barzel) (Joshua 17:16, 18; Judges 1:19, 4:3, 13). As recently as 1983, one commentator has told us, “It is historically highly improbable… that the Canaanaites were equipped with iron chariots before the end of the second millennium B.C.”1
But the archaeological evidence is clearly to the contrary. The biblical text does not require us to suppose that the Canaanite chariots were wholly iron, but only that they were strengthened with it, as several commentators have realized2 But as the evidence in the accompanying article shows, iron was sufficiently available in the Late Bronze Age to make iron-plated chariots plausible.

sotto voce · 10-02-2012, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratel

This is not about the famous failure of Yahweh

Scholarship, not trollery, if you please.

Toto · 10-02-2012, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratel

This is not about the famous failure of Yahweh

Scholarship, not trollery, if you please.

Struck a nerve?

sotto voce · 10-02-2012, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratel

This is not about the famous failure of Yahweh

Scholarship, not trollery, if you please.

Struck a nerve?

So is skepticism so desperate that it relies on slipping in fabrications as assumed truth? Surely things are not so bad.

WVIncagold · 10-02-2012, 06:05 AM

I am no historian or biblical scholar. However, may I preface with the reason chariots existed at all was because of the size of horses during that time period. They were small, much smaller than today's horses and unable to carry men on their backs. that's why the chariot became prevalent as a means of war. So just adding this to the fray of the premise of weight in dealing with iron chariots. A fully iron (not steel but iron) would be incredibly heavy. Iron is much heaver than steel in order to achieve the same strength. most people think of iron they actually think of today's steel. Think cast iron is more probable such as a cast iron stove. Casting Iron was around at then end of the bronze age but very very expensive and quality was poor. The iron would have cracked on the stress a chariot would experience. Few would last a couple of expeditions without numerous bronze brazing to hold them together. Also plates would be super heavy and would mire any chariot in the sand or loose material and would be utterly useless in mud. As with everything in the bible its nothing more than myth all around. They would have been useless in a military context as pointed out the horses and men would be exposed to the faster moving war chariots or even foot archers.

sotto voce · 10-02-2012, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

I am no historian or biblical scholar. However, may I preface with the reason chariots existed at all was because of the size of horses during that time period. They were small, much smaller than today's horses and unable to carry men on their backs. that's why the chariot became prevalent as a means of war. So just adding this to the fray of the premise of weight in dealing with iron chariots. A fully iron (not steel but iron) would be incredibly heavy. Iron is much heaver than steel in order to achieve the same strength. most people think of iron they actually think of today's steel. Think cast iron is more probable such as a cast iron stove. Casting Iron was around at then end of the bronze age but very very expensive and quality was poor. The iron would have cracked on the stress a chariot would experience. Few would last a couple of expeditions without numerous bronze brazing to hold them together. Also plates would be super heavy and would mire any chariot in the sand or loose material and would be utterly useless in mud. As with everything in the bible its nothing more than myth all around. They would have been useless in a military context as pointed out the horses and men would be exposed to the faster moving war chariots or even foot archers.

So how does one explain why people invented impossible chariots in order to show that their deity was a failure? Or was this bit written by their enemies?

10-01-2012, 05:29 PM	#1
Ratel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: SD, USA Posts: 268	Iron Chariots This is not about the famous failure of Yahweh to prevail against the Canaanite tribes whose maryannu drove iron chariots chronicled for us in Judges, rather, I'd like to inquire as to your opinion about what these "iron chariots" were. I doubt that the steeds of the late bronze early iron age could have pulled a vehicle made of iron, or even plated with iron as a type of armor. Such armor would be relatively useless anyway, since it would only protect the driver's lower extremities and would have left vulnerable the horses entirely. I can't imagine fully barded chargers pulling an iron clad chariot either. Any such solutions would have slowed the aparatus down considerably I would think. The only solution that suggests itself to me is that the chariots were held together with iron fastenings or that they had scythes attached to them or something. Perhaps "of iron" is simply a way of saying that the teams of warriors driving them were "quite tough" "professional soldiers" or something. Does anyone have an insight into this passage?

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10-01-2012, 06:32 PM	#3
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	heres a hint look for 6th century BC chariots in and around Babylon cultures

10-02-2012, 06:05 AM	#9
WVIncagold Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: West Virginina Posts: 4,349	I am no historian or biblical scholar. However, may I preface with the reason chariots existed at all was because of the size of horses during that time period. They were small, much smaller than today's horses and unable to carry men on their backs. that's why the chariot became prevalent as a means of war. So just adding this to the fray of the premise of weight in dealing with iron chariots. A fully iron (not steel but iron) would be incredibly heavy. Iron is much heaver than steel in order to achieve the same strength. most people think of iron they actually think of today's steel. Think cast iron is more probable such as a cast iron stove. Casting Iron was around at then end of the bronze age but very very expensive and quality was poor. The iron would have cracked on the stress a chariot would experience. Few would last a couple of expeditions without numerous bronze brazing to hold them together. Also plates would be super heavy and would mire any chariot in the sand or loose material and would be utterly useless in mud. As with everything in the bible its nothing more than myth all around. They would have been useless in a military context as pointed out the horses and men would be exposed to the faster moving war chariots or even foot archers.

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