Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Alesiah · 07-12-2008, 12:14 AM

Oops, part of the list was lost for whatever reason..
Mirtha, Krishna, Ameratsu, the goddess..etc...

Quote:

Was this unclear? Generally when someone ask you to cite texts/primary sources that document/back up the claims you make, that's what they mean. And with the exception of Steve Avery, that's what others addressed with this request understand the request to mean. And the source you sent me to cites no ancient texts at all! So why on earth did you even consider it a site that anyone should be sent to, even if they were willing to go on a text hunt?

You know, I found this site topic interesting and I was here to learn and exchange ideas as well... This is very sad Jeff, that you're hung up and such a pompus arrogant person.... Where is the Christ in you????

You know, I've been around doctors for 23 years...Some are arrogant/puffed up, looking down on others, simply full of themselves... then you have the others, that are down to earth, that speak to their staff and patients with caring.....I learn and work best with the ones that are not hung up on themselves and that DO NOT belittle others..

Here let’s put the topic back in your pile…

Aries, “Conception”…
nine months between spring and winter, “Gestation”….
Capricorn, Birth!

This is just too simple for your superior mind to grasp…. Just too simplistic ..

Do you recall the Exodus??

The Hebrews left Egypt because it was a pagan solar worshipping culture, Horus, Ra,,Amon, etc... The 10th plague of the Exodus, happened during the Aries constellation before the Aries/ram of the Zodiac was even named by the Greeks..…

Funny that the Hebrew’s “God” selected the ram/lamb and GOAT for slaughter on the first Passover before leaving Egypt..…
The Hebrew’s obeyed their God’s by slaughtering many ram/lambs and goats to DENOUNCE the gods of Egypt..

The Hebrew’s traded the 10th plague for the 10 commandments, saving their first born humans and animals.. They did NOT want to serve the winter-solstice gods..

Later in the OT Christian Bible or the Tanach, the winter solstice solar celebration was warned against:

Quote:

Jeremiah 10
Idols and the True God
1 Hear the word which the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel.
2 Thus says the LORD:

“ Do not learn the way of the Gentiles;
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
5 They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”
6 Inasmuch as there is none like You, O LORD
(You are great, and Your name is great in might),
7 Who would not fear You, O King of the nations?
For this is Your rightful due.
For among all the wise men of the nations,
And in all their kingdoms,
There is none like You.
8 But they are altogether dull-hearted and foolish;
A wooden idol is a worthless doctrine.
9 Silver is beaten into plates;
It is brought from Tarshish,
And gold from Uphaz,
The work of the craftsman
And of the hands of the metalsmith;
Blue and purple are their clothing;
They are all the work of skillful men.
10 But the LORD is the true God;
He is the living God and the everlasting King.
At His wrath the earth will tremble,
And the nations will not be able to endure His indignation.

11 Thus you shall say to them: “The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens.”

If this version is not the version you like, try this site below..

http://www.biblegateway.com/

Or you can look at the Jewish Tanach for comparison:

Quote:

Yirmiyahu - Chapter 10

1. Hearken to the word that the Lord spoke about you, O house of Israel.
2. So says the Lord: of the way of the nations you shall not learn, and from the signs of the heaven be not dismayed, for the nations are dismayed from them.
3. For the statutes of the peoples are vanity, for it is but a stock that one cut from the forest, the handiwork of a carpenter with a small axe.
4. With silver and gold he beautifies it, with nails and with sledge hammers they strengthen them so that it does not bend.
5. Like a palm tree they are beaten, and they do not speak; they are carried for they do not step; fear them not for they will do no harm, neither is it in them to do good.
6. There is none like You, O Lord; You are great, and Your name is great with might.
7. Who will not fear You, O King of the nations, for it befits You, for among all the wise men of the nations and among all their kingdom there is none like You.
8. But with one thing they are brutish and foolish, the vanities for which they will be punished are but wood.
9. Silver beaten into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of a craftsman and the hands of a smith; their raiment is blue and purple, all of them the work of experts.
10. But the Lord God is true; He is a living God and the King of the world; from His anger the earth quakes, and the nations cannot contain His fury.
11. So shall you say to them, "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth, shall perish from the earth and from beneath these heavens.
12. Who made the earth with His strength, He prepared the world by His wisdom, and with His understanding He stretched out the heavens.

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...Chapter-10.htm

Alesiah · 07-12-2008, 12:29 AM

Christians keep the old pagan tradition of trimming the tree with gold and silver... A winter-solstice ancient solar worshipping tradition..

Oddly Jeremiah 10:1-11 warned against it.. yet Christians do it...
Geee, do you think it's because Jesus is a lot more like Horus and etc... than you'd like to accept????

Winter-solstice celebration of the solar gods pre-date JC..
That's one reason why Jews that practice Judaism, do not worship JC...
JC is an idol..

Anyway, I've gotta go... It was nice visiting...

CartesianFart · 07-12-2008, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You say you want people to safeguard themselve NOT to think that someone earlier group manipulated the old religion to add Jesus to it? What would this safegard them from?

It would prevent them to become paranoid conspiracy theorist with no fact supporting their inconclusive evidence.

Alesiah · 07-12-2008, 04:06 PM

Jeffery,

Quote:

And you are aware, are you not, that the early church did not say that Jesus was born during December, and that the date of the original/earliest celebrations of Jesus' birth was not Dec. 25th?

I absolutely DO know that.... JC was born September if he was born at all.....
The Aries, Immaculate Conception, Nine month Gestation and Capricorn, winter birth is ancient pre-JC pagan mythology that was mixed into the NT...
The Hebrew's God (which is not JC) was against paganism and the Judaism practicing Jew's know paganism was put in the NT, GT...(Gospel Text).......

Paganism mixing with the JC story occured during the initial RCC movement...
You have to be a detective to catch what's been falsely sold to the public..
JC is not a man/god
not born of a virgin.
Not perfect
Did not die for everyone's sins during Easter....

After the new religion was forced on the European Empire....A mob that had been taught that JC was god......begin to spread that the Jew's killed god..and many Jew's were slaughted because of this false religion...

BTW, there were many gospels but the RCC selected only FOUR to reflect what they wanted to reflect... :frown:

JC was simply a man, if not totally fabricated from the git-goooooo... However personally, I do believe a factual individual and his family did live...but that's my own opinion.. I think the Jesus family crypt found and aired on the Discovery Channel, "could" have been the real McCoy..But because it didn't fit the GT story fully, the infallible-word-of-god believers dismissed it... Oh well...

Have a good rest of the weekend..

clint999 · 07-14-2008, 03:10 AM

How close must something be to count as a parallel?

At this stage, it probably doesn't matter, as long as it fulfills the following two criteria:
1. The proposed parallel can be found in primary sources
2. The proposed parallel reflects what is actually in primary sources. That is, the wording needs to be accurate. E.g. "Horus was born of a virgin, like Jesus!" "No, Horus was born miraculously." "Nitpick!" Probably best to use "born miraculously" to start off with.

I think it's worth listing all parallels, including the superficial ones, since we may find that a number of superficial parallels will reveal a pattern worth analyzing further. But that kind of analysis can wait until after we have all the parallels documented and verified from primary sources.

Yes, I think so, though we would need to verify many of them. The problem is that there is a lot of bogus information out there.

I'd suggest "Jesus is the Son of God, and Horus is the son of a god" as a more accurate wording.

I agree with the following:

These would need to be verified:

Is there a source for these?

I think we'd have a better idea about the influence once we have the parallels documented.

Roger Pearse · 07-14-2008, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alesiah

Mithras, the Unconquered Sun of Persia, was born during the solstice

No ancient text records this of Roman Mithras. If there is a Persian text that records it of Mitra, I want to see it. But I note that people went around asserting this about Mithras until I researched it and started correcting them; I suspect that Mitra likewise has no such connection.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Jeffrey Gibson · 07-14-2008, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alesiah

Jeffery,

Quote:

And you are aware, are you not, that the early church did not say that Jesus was born during December, and that the date of the original/earliest celebrations of Jesus' birth was not Dec. 25th?

I absolutely DO know that.... JC was born September if he was born at all.....

Are you saying that the early church celebrated Jesus' birth in September? If so, could you provide a source that shows that some early church father saying this?

Quote:

The Aries, Immaculate Conception,

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is about Mary, not about Jesus.

Quote:

Nine month Gestation

You've still failed to show that any ancient believed that the period of the gestation of a god was excatly the same as the petiod of gestation for human births. And you've still not provided a whif of evidence that any of the gods who you say (but have not shown) were born in December, were presented as having been conceived in Spring.

May we have some actual evidence for this please?

Quote:

BTW, there were many gospels but the RCC selected only FOUR to reflect what they wanted to reflect... :frown:

Do you have a date for this "RCC" event? When did this selection occur and when exactly was it promulgated?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 07-14-2008, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alesiah

Later in the OT Christian Bible or the Tanach, the winter solstice solar celebration was warned against:

If this version is not the version you like, try this site below..

http://www.biblegateway.com/

Or you can look at the Jewish Tanach for comparison:

I must be missing something. Could you point to where exactly in the Biblical quote you gave us this "warning" against the winter/solstice celebration you say I can find within the quote, actually appears?

And you still have not provided anything real evidence that backs up your claim that the ancients believed that the Persian god Mithra and the greek god Hephaestus were born in December? Are you going to do this, or not?

Jeffrey

Alesiah · 07-19-2008, 12:05 PM

Jeff,

This is silly...
I've already read some of the counter claims presented, which you'll try to direct me to, to support that Mithra was not celebrated on December, ETC...

I'll direct you to this information or that and you'll simply pooo-poo it.

Fact of the matter, there's endless physical evidence that ancient cultures celebrated the winter-solstice in many different ways...and their gods were born during the winter-solstice, etc.... I already listed some of the gods including JC so you can counter them if you like..

Facts remain facts..

The ancient people developed elabrate agriculture seasonal equinox/solstice marking calendar structures.. which rest here and there all over the Northern Hemisphere, etc...... Marking specifically, the winter-solstice..prior to JC..

Quote:

December 25 was the Christianizing of the dies solis invicti nati (“day of the birth of the unconquered sun”),

You can read the full article at the site listed:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...20Encyclopedia
Philocalian Calendar (Roman almanac)

You can look into these:

T’ai chu’u calendar- the period of time between one new moon and the next before the one in which the winter solstice occurred. This calendar was used until 104 BC.....Prior to JC's time

http://original.britannica.com/eb/to...-chuu-calendar

STONEHENGE
NEWGRAVANGE IN IRELAND
MAESHOWE
CHACO CANYAN IN NEW MEXICO
SHAB-E YALDA
MAYAN CALENDAR-ends 12-21-2012 on the winter solstice..

The winter solstice was celebrated long before JC.....
JC's story was planted into the existing ancient's "dies solis invicti nati"......
“day of the birth of the unconquered sun”

Jeffrey Gibson · 07-19-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alesiah

Jeff,

It's Jeffrey, not Jeff.

Quote:

This is silly..

.

Yes, it is.

Quote:

I've already read some of the counter claims presented, which you'll try to direct me to, to support that Mithra was not celebrated on December, ETC...

You are confusing Mithra, a Persian deity, with Mithras. And there is no evidence that the birth of Mithra was celebrated on Dec. 25th.

Quote:

I'll direct you to this information or that and you'll simply pooo-poo it.

So far all you've directed me to are pages with unattested/undocumented assertions. This should be poo pooed.

Quote:

Fact of the matter, there's endless physical evidence that ancient cultures celebrated the winter-solstice in many different ways

Yes (though "endless" is a bit of an overstatement, isn't it?), but that's irrelevant to the matter of where in ancient literature attestation to "knowledge" of a December birth for the gods you claim were known to have been born in December. And even it's more irrelevant to the matter of where in ancient literature we can find attestation to knowledge of those gods having been conceived during the spring equinox.

Quote:

and their gods were born during the winter-solstice, etc. ... I already listed some of the gods including JC so you can counter them if you like..

Facts remain facts.

What facts? You still not produced one whit of evidence from ancient sources that any gods. let alone the ones you listed, were known to have been born during the Winter Solstice.

Quote:

The winter solstice was celebrated long before JC.....

Never denied it. But now you've switched claims.

Jeffrey

07-12-2008, 12:29 AM	#172
Alesiah Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Missouri,USA Posts: 12	Traditions Christians keep the old pagan tradition of trimming the tree with gold and silver... A winter-solstice ancient solar worshipping tradition.. Oddly Jeremiah 10:1-11 warned against it.. yet Christians do it... Geee, do you think it's because Jesus is a lot more like Horus and etc... than you'd like to accept???? Winter-solstice celebration of the solar gods pre-date JC.. That's one reason why Jews that practice Judaism, do not worship JC... JC is an idol.. Anyway, I've gotta go... It was nice visiting...

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07-14-2008, 03:10 AM	#175
clint999 Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 18	How close must something be to count as a parallel? At this stage, it probably doesn't matter, as long as it fulfills the following two criteria: 1. The proposed parallel can be found in primary sources 2. The proposed parallel reflects what is actually in primary sources. That is, the wording needs to be accurate. E.g. "Horus was born of a virgin, like Jesus!" "No, Horus was born miraculously." "Nitpick!" Probably best to use "born miraculously" to start off with. I think it's worth listing all parallels, including the superficial ones, since we may find that a number of superficial parallels will reveal a pattern worth analyzing further. But that kind of analysis can wait until after we have all the parallels documented and verified from primary sources. Yes, I think so, though we would need to verify many of them. The problem is that there is a lot of bogus information out there. I'd suggest "Jesus is the Son of God, and Horus is the son of a god" as a more accurate wording. I agree with the following: These would need to be verified: Is there a source for these? I think we'd have a better idea about the influence once we have the parallels documented.

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