Celsus

I wrote a summary of thoughts on R.E. Friedman here, for those who are interested. I know a lot have read his book.

Joel

Amaleq13

Is there a primary contender for the title or is the mess hopeless absent new evidence?

Celsus

If we take "J" to mean material that's not P or D, then we've got a functional hypothesis still. All dates are out the window though.

Joel

gregor

Thanks for the link, and I enjoyed the post. But coming from someone only familiar with Friedman, can you help me understand the major cracks in the paradigm on a very basic level? I have a few questions:

1. Do most researchers believe there were more or fewer competing accounts that became the Pentatuch. Should JEDP be replaced with twice as many accounts?

2. Should the original stories all be dated to excilic or post excilic times? What are the general Friedman dates and what is the general consensus under the sources you cite.

3. Does current scholarship weaken even further the historicity of the Pentatuch?

Thanks

Amaleq13

What about the guy(s) who put it all together?

Celsus

What we have now is a plethora of competing accounts. Most have abandoned E, as I mentioned, some like Schmid have incorporated J"E" into D, and others are more interested in the composition as a whole (where they acknowledge multiple sources, but don't think we can actually pick it apart to tell us anything about these sources). Friedman thinks there is still an overarching unity in "J", "E", "D", and "P", but this is mostly in his own mind. The direction of trying to identify J1, J2, J3, etc. is probably over.
Nobody can say when the "original" stories date to, but final redaction has been moving ever closer to the 2nd century BCE. Friedman sees the redactor as Ezra (5th century), Blenkinsopp as a Persian constitution document, a number of minimalists as a Maccabean construction, and so on. For earlier sources, the tendancy to date D to Josiah remains tempting, but has been questioned by several, and seems to reflect exilic (or later) concerns. J has been up in the air for some time, but we can at least conclude that Wellhausen's depiction of J as the most primitive of the theologies does not reduce to it being the earliest (Van Seters sees J as expansions of D). P remains firm in its identification, but its dating varies from Friedman's 6th century date, all the way into the Maccabean period. There are plenty of parallels everywhere that give plausible settings to dates.
I don't think anyone, even Friedman, would dare say much about the historicity of the Pentateuch, regardless of its date (it's now generally acknowledged that up to at least the time of the Judges, hardly anything in the Bible is historical).

Joel

Celsus

I don't know. Have you considered P.R. Davies' scribal school model? He mentions it in his In Search of 'Ancient Israel', but probably has more in Scribes and Schools (which I have not read). I'm not sure how seriously he takes it himself though, but it is fun (and no, I don't buy it). Alternatively, Blenkinsopp talks of the Pentateuch as a Persian constitutional document, but I don't have the reference on me (he does make a bit of mention of it in The Pentateuch.

Joel

l-bow

Documentary Hypothesis is in crisis. Therefore Moses wrote the Pentateuch, right, RIGHT???

Likewise with evolution. It's coming under attack and is in crisis. Atheists should be afraid. The pillars of their atheist faith are crumbling.

MysteryProf

Since I've only read Friedman, could someone please tell me: Is it specific versions of the documentary hypothesis that come under attack by legit scholars or is it the documentary hypothesis altogether? I can't get an idea of how well-accepted the idea of multiple authors is among scholars. Friedman's book made a lot of sense to me, though, I have to say.

gregor

I think the 'deal' is (although Joel is better at this than I) that multiple authors and amalgam of thoughts is accepted by all. However, some of Friedman's premises that are apparently challenged include:

1. Yahweh and Elohim are indications of different authors.
(apparently this is not a clear differentiation of authors)

2. Alot of the J and E was written before the Babylonian exile.
(on the contrary, there is little evidence of old dating, much may be from the exilic or post-exilic period)

3. You can carve up the different author's segments with practice.
(it's tougher than it seems)