andrewcriddle

They may well have been important people within their local Christian community, but that wasn't what I meant by senior officials .

Andrew Criddle

aa5874

So, just tell us what you mean.

andrewcriddle

I meant politicians and civil servants and people like that.

Andrew Criddle

DCHindley

Aa-ndrew,

Don't let yourself get sucked into a vortex!

DCH

DCHindley

Vid,

I think the quotation I gave from Kloppenborg might answer part of your question, at least with regard to whether that title was known to the general public. Both presbyters (elders) and deacons (servents) were known titles within Greek associations, so I doubt that a common reader might say "A what?!" Remember that Pliny was writing to the emperor of the Roman empire, who would know this better than anyone. Pliny was speaking of them (their meals, oaths, organization, etc) as, and the emperor seemed to understand them as, one of the many (and technically illegal) voluntary associations in the empire.

Were you also asking whether a female, or a slave, holding a position in an association might be something that a typical person of that age would marvel at?

DCH

gurugeorge

The thing that's always intrigued me about this passage is what are the "abominable practices" (can't remember Pliny's exact wording) the deaconesses confessed to?

Is it merely something that went against Roman civic morality, or something more like the kinky stuff later described by heresy hunters?

In which case, is this (one of the earliest references to Christians) evidence that kinky practices were part of earliest Christianity?

GakuseiDon

[QUOTE=gurugeorge;5782980]The thing that's always intrigued me about this passage is what are the "abominable practices" (can't remember Pliny's exact wording) the deaconesses confessed to?

Probably atheism -- denying the Roman gods -- and worshipping the cross.

I've often wondered whether something along those lines might have been part of some early Christian practices, and perhaps part of its allure. Christianity was accused of infanticide and "love feasts", where people swapped wives and indulged in orgies. People like Lucian's Peregrine, for example, might well have used early Christian beliefs for their own enrichment. But this would be charismatic individuals taking advantage of established beliefs rather than those behaviours being there from the start.

Tertullian states that Christians were slandered along the lines of promiscuity and infanticide, but that he was unaware of any Christians who had ever been convicted of such crimes.

I find this passage in Lucian on Peregrine/Proteus about early Christians interesting:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/wl4/wl420.htm

It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed. I can tell you, he pretty soon convinced them of his superiority; prophet, elder, ruler of the Synagogue--he was everything at once; expounded their books, commented on them, wrote books himself. They took him for a God, accepted his laws, and declared him their president. The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day,--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. Well, the end of it was that Proteus was arrested and thrown into prison. This was the very thing to lend an air to his favourite arts of clap-trap and wonder-working; he was now a made man.

The Christians took it all very seriously: he was no sooner in prison, than they began trying every means to get him out again,--but without success. Everything else that could be done for him they most devoutly did. They thought of nothing else. Orphans and ancient widows might be seen hanging about the prison from break of day. Their officials bribed the gaolers to let them sleep inside with him. Elegant dinners were conveyed in; their sacred writings were read; and our old friend Peregrine (as he was still called in those days) became for them "the modern Socrates."

In some of the Asiatic cities, too, the Christian communities put themselves to the expense of sending deputations, with offers of sympathy, assistance, and legal advice. The activity of these people, in dealing with any matter that affects their community, is something extraordinary; they spare no trouble, no expense. Peregrine, all this time, was making quite an income on the strength of his bondage; money came pouring in.

You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on trust, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property. Now an adroit, unscrupulous fellow, who has seen the world, has only to get among these simple souls, and his fortune is pretty soon made; he plays with them.

Clivedurdle

This has to be a significant reason behind their prosecution.

Denying the gods, associating with one another, not worried about private goods, wimmin, slaves - communism init? Revolution, get out the equivalent of McCarthy!

andrewcriddle

One can read here Pliny's Letter the deaconesses only confessed to an absurd and extravagant superstition.

Andrew Criddle

rlogan

I think it pretty important that female slaves were deaconesses in the 2d century.

By the 4th century it has been co-opted by the establishment.

Were this something that had arisen in the educated and propertied elite, Pliny would have no trouble determining details and obtaining their literature.

But there is no literature at this time. Pliny would, through this very investigation, have determined that gospel texts existed if they did indeed exist.

People who promote the idea of gospels in the 1st century have to explain why Pliny, through investigation, knew nothing of them. We are to believe that gospels were liturgical devices and the very core of Christian belief and yet Pliny knew nothing of them?

No, instead at this time we have a Christianity amongst the rabble. Slaves as deaconesses. Nobody with enough money to have scribes put together liturgical documents.

Same with the Didache. More likely 2d century.