Originally Posted by darstec

That is really funny -- you writing that I am "unfamiliar with the language usage and the terrain". I studied for the priesthood and have a formal education in the study of ancient languages of Hebrew, Greek and Latin (and some modern ones too) as well as theology. I've kept up those studies over the last 30+ years though I am no longer a believer.

Let us look at the Greek: τοτε ηÏ?ωδης ιδων οτι ενεπαιχθη υπο των μαγων εθυμωθη λιαν και αποστειλας ανειλεν παντας τους παιδας τους εν βηθλεεμ και εν πασιν τοις οÏ?ιοις αυτης απο διετους και κατωτεÏ?ω κατα τον χÏ?ονον ον ηκÏ?ιβωσεν παÏ?α των μαγων

From the phase under discussion και εν πασιν τοις οÏ?ιοις translated as and about the whole region. Jerome translates that as et in omnibus finibus eius which translates much to the same and about the whole territory.

So region and territory are good definitions but can take the meaning of coasts depending upon proximity as we find in Pausanias, Description of Greece -- ta de eti archaiotera akra sphisi pros thalassêi horos ên ho Araxos translated as though of old the boundary was Cape Araxus on the coast.

Again the word is used in Plato's Republic Book 4, Page 423 translated as measure to indicate expanse.

There are a few hundred more examples in Classical Greek, many of which imply a large area, but those examples should suffice to demonstrate the point.

Let us look at another verse in Matthew: και καταλιπων την ναζαÏ?α ελθων κατωκησεν εις καφαÏ?ναουμ την παÏ?αθαλασσιαν εν οÏ?ιοις ζαβουλων και νεφθαλιμ particularly the phrase about the territories of Zabulon and Nephthali

The same word is used in the Septuagint in Exodus 13,7, Numbers 32:33, Deuteronomy 16:4, Deuteronomy 28:40, Joshua 21:42, Joshua 24:31, I Chronicles 6:39 and in about 8 other verses, all of which imply large areas.

Now let us look at a map showing Capernaum which was about the territories of Zebulon and Nephtali http://www.studylight.org/se/maps/normal/057a.jpg. Notice that Matthew referred to a rather large, encompassing territory. Using a later map of the same area showing Capernaum we see that the distance covered by the territories of Zebulon and Zephthali with Matthew using the same word {οÏ?ιοις} in both passages to designate a region, we find that Matthew is very generous in referring to land areas. http://http://www.studylight.org/se/maps/normal/099.jpg So why would you drop Jerusalem when Matthew obviously in these and several other passages tends to be more inclusive and expansive, unless you deliberately want to read the texts in such a way as to make the numbers small? The word's usage is not a limiting one but rather an encompasing one showing large areas.

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Originally Posted by aChristian

You ought to buy yourself a Greek dictionary. Try Liddell and Scott or Thayer. opios means boundary. If you are talking about the boundaries of a large area, the boundaries will be a large area. If you are talking about the boundaries of a small area, the boundaries will be a small area. For another possibility, look at the translation by the Greek scholars who made the NKJV.

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

That's an awfully supercillious tone for someone who apparently doesn't know the difference between a rho and a pi.

Liddell and Scott defines orion as "boundary" or "limit," but that's mostly in the singular. In the plural (as in oriois) it tales on a much broader range of meaning generally indicating something a little more than a line on a map.L&S offers up "boundaries, limits, frontiers, and territories" as all being valid translations.

Originally Posted by aChristian

I agree that my comment about buying a dictionary was uncalled for and unbecoming someone who claims to know Jesus. I apologize to darstec for the insult. The rest of the comment is correct, but my insult reduces the impact.

Originally Posted by aChristian

You ought to buy yourself a Greek dictionary. Try Liddell and Scott or Thayer.

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Liddell and Scott is a classical Greek dictionary. Though it should certainly be in one's library, it is not designed to be a dictionary for the first century Koine Greek of the New Testament.

Thayer is still used by amateurs mainly because it is out of copyright and therefore relatively inexpensive. However, even though it had once been the scholarly standard in America, it is over a hundred years old and a translation of an even older Greek-German dictionary, by Grimm. It is now considered obsolete.

The current state-of-the-art Greek lexicon for NT studies is the 3rd edition of Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG). It is indispensible for any serious study of the NT.

Though BDAG is more expensive than Thayer's, you must not let price deter you from acquiting this fundamental tool or you'll just end up short-changing yourself. It is well worth the investment, and few books will repay as many dividends over the years. Unlike the latest commentary or monograph, BDAG will have a useful shelf-life of 20+ years before becoming obsolete. (NB: Thayer's is already obsolete.)

Stephen

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Liddell and Scott defines orion as "boundary" or "limit," but that's mostly in the singular. In the plural (as in oriois) it tales on a much broader range of meaning generally indicating something a little more than a line on a map.L&S offers up "boundaries, limits, frontiers, and territories" as all being valid translations.

Originally Posted by aChristian

By the way, I hope everyone realizes that in order to prove the original point that this verse was quoted for, the word would have to only be able to be translated as territories. Since it can also mean boundaries, the claim that it has to mean all the babies in a large section of southern Israel is wrong.

Originally Posted by aChristian

in order to prove the original point that this verse was quoted for, the word would have to only be able to be translated as territories. Since it can also mean boundaries, the claim that it has to mean all the babies in a large section of southern Israel is wrong.

Originally Posted by praxeus

simply the fact that Bethlehem is a small town near a fairly large city (Jerusalem)