Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 06-02-2005, 06:06 PM

I am fascinated by the fact that Deuteronomy 32:8-9 portrays Yahweh as one of El’s 70 sons.

It makes me giggle. :rolling:

Earlier this week I discovered this tasty morsel:

Quote:

In these words surely he [Moses] names first the Most High God, the Supreme God of the Universe, and then, as Lord, His Word, Whom we call Lord in the second degree after the God of the universe . . . to One beyond comparison with (the angels), the Head and King of the Universe, I mean to Christ Himself, as being the Only Begotten Son, was handed over that part of humanity denominated Jacob and Israel.

Eusebius - Proof of the Gospel, IV.9

This is exceptional because it shows that even Eusebius understood Deut 32:8-9 to read that the god who divided the nations among his sons (El - in verse 8) is not the same god who inherited the nation of Jacob (Yahweh - in verse 9).

Obviously, Eusebius wanted to pretend that Jebus was Yahweh in sheep’s clothing.

My question is directed to skeptical atheist Bible enthusiasts:

Does anyone have any additional info, comments, or observations, about early Christianity and the NT, to support the hypothesis that the concept of a messiah, and the myth of a Jesus, evolved from Yahweh’s relationship to El as described in Deut 32:8-9?

Ratel · 06-03-2005, 08:34 AM

I think Margaret Barker has some writings that follow this theory- "The Great Angel- Israel's other God" is one title. I believe she mentions the identification of Yahweh with Jesus (rather than with God the Father) in early Christianity.

Here's a review of that book:

http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/rpbarker.html

I've read some of her essays on this topic floating around the internet-you might want to google her and see what comes up.

I've found Christians, even liberal ones, get rather worked up about some of her ideas, so judge for yourself.

Loomis · 06-03-2005, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratel

I think Margaret Barker has some writings that follow this theory- "The Great Angel- Israel's other God" is one title. I believe she mentions the identification of Yahweh with Jesus (rather than with God the Father) in early Christianity

Thanks a lot! :notworthy Yea, that looks right in line with what I am thinking.

I’ve seen Barker and her book mentioned a lot. It looks like the Mormons embrace it – so I always assumed she was a Believer and that the book would be laden with superstition. But in any case, I guess its time I break down and buy it.

Regarding liberal Christians; you might want to check this out:

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7...tUnderWay.html

It is an interview with a Christian Bible scholar named Dr. James Tabor, Professor of Biblical studies for the University of North Carolina, Charlotte.

Evidently Dr. Tabor is working on a new Bible translation. In the article he discusses Deuteronomy 32, and even refers to El by his proper name.

Quote:

… take the text of Deuteronomy 32:8:

'When the most High divided the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people, according to the number of the children of Israel.'

This is the standard reading of the traditional Hebrew text, which we refer to as the Masoretic (MT). It is the basic translation that will be found in the King James Version. However, scholars have known for centuries that in the Septuagint (LXX) version, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible made in the 2nd century B.C., the last phrase reads quite differently.

'When the most High divided the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people, according to the number of the sons of God.'

Obviously, the meaning is quite different, and might even have some important theological implications.

As it turns out, to the surprise of us all, the Dead Sea texts of Deuteronomy, which date from before the time of Jesus, agree with the Greek Septuagint version, against the traditional Hebrew text (MT)! In fact, the exact Hebrew of the Dead Sea texts is most interesting, it reads literally, 'according to the sons of El.' This divergence from the traditional text is rare, but when it occurs it is surely significant. This means that Jesus and the other Jews of the first century read copies of Deuteronomy that read 'according to the sons of El,' rather than 'according to the number of the sons of Israel.' Since the whole idea behind the Original Bible Project is to be just that, as original as possible in terms of text, order of the books, and accuracy of translation, this reading should certainly appear in our Bible.

I love it!

If Jesus is the son of Yahweh, then Jesus is the grandson of El!

Eventually the apologists will find a way to gloss this over. But as it stands now, it’s a little bit like RAID™. It stops God-claimers dead in their tracks.

Except the Mormons, of course.

CJD · 06-03-2005, 11:17 AM

Here I go, pushing this article again …

Regarding early Christianity's identification of Jesus with YHWH, see this article (in .pdf) by Richard Bauckham.

Best,

CJD

Loomis · 06-03-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

Here I go, pushing this article again …

Regarding early Christianity's identification of Jesus with YHWH, see this article (in .pdf) by Richard Bauckham.

Best,

CJD

That article does not discuss the hypothesis described in my opening post, even though I specifically asked for comments in that regard. And you do not appear to be a skeptical atheist Bible enthusiast.

<inflammatory language deleted>

Toto · 06-03-2005, 01:15 PM

Loomis - the article does discuss Jewish monotheism. I haven't read it, but it might shed some light.

We do not generally allow people to control the ideology of those answering their OP's, especially in this forum, which aims at a full debate of issues.

John Kesler · 06-03-2005, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Loomis:
I love it!

If Jesus is the son of Yahweh, then Jesus is the grandson of El!

Eventually the apologists will find a way to gloss this over.

The "glossing over" started in the Old Testament (not with regard to Jesus, of course), as Dr. Mark S. Smith makes clear in The Origins of Biblical Monotheism. Smith says the following regarding Deuteronomy 32:8-9:

Quote:

"...the texts of the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls show an Israelite polytheism that clearly focuses on the central importance of Yahweh for Israel within the larger scheme of the world, yet this larger scheme provides a place for all the other gods in the world. Moreover, even if this
text is quite mute about the god who presides over the whole arrangement, it
does maintain a place for such a god who is not Yahweh. The title Elyon
('Most High') seems to denote the figure of El (called El Elyon in Genesis
14:18-22); he is par excellence not only at Ugarit but also in Psalm 82. The
author of Psalm 82 wishes to depose this older theology, as the Israelite
God is called to assume a new role as judge of all the world. Yet at the
same time, Psalm 82, like Deuteronomy 32:8-9, preserves the outlines of the
older Israelite theology it is rejecting."

Regarding Psalm 82 Smith says,

Quote:

...the form of older Israelite (reduced) polytheism known from Psalm 82 casts Yahweh in an explicit divine council scene not as its head, who is
instead left decidedly mute or left undescribed (which is probably the
reason it survived the later collapsing of the different tiers). Psalm 82
begins:

God (elohim) stands in the assembly of El/divine council (adat el), Among
the divinities (elohim) He pronounces judgment.

Here the figure God takes his stand in the assembly. The name God was
understood in the tradition, and perhaps at the time of the text's original
composition as well, to be none other than Yahweh; the name El seems to be
involved with the expression "assembly of El" (preferable to "divine
assembly," given El's title, Elyon, in verse 6). In any case, the assembly
consists of all the gods of the world, for all those other gods are
condemned to death in verse 6:

I myself presumed that You are gods, Sons of the Most High (Elyon), Yet like
humans you will die, And fall like any prince.

A prophetic voice emerges in verse 8, calling for God (elohim) to assume the
role of judge of all the earth :

Arise, O God, judge the world; For you inherit all the nations.

Here Yahweh in effect assumes the task of all gods to rule their own
nations. Verse 6 calls the gods "sons of Elyon," probably a title of El at
an early point in biblical tradition (Genesis 14:18-20). If this supposition
is correct, Psalm 82 preserves a tradition that casts the god of Israel not
in the role of the presiding god of the pantheon but as one of his sons.
Each of these sons has a different nation as his ancient patrimony (or
family inheritance) and therefore serves as its ruler. Then verse 6 calls on
Yahweh to arrogate to himself the traditional inheritance of all the other
gods: all the nations.

Loomis · 06-03-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Smith says the following regarding Deuteronomy 32:8-9 ...

Thanks John.

I’m familiar with Smith’s books. He makes a lot of good points. But I wonder if he isn’t a little off base regarding Psalm 82.

First of all, the text doesn’t say anything about Yahweh.

Nothing at all.

Anywhere.

Isn’t it possible that Psalm 82 was written by an El-worshipper who never even heard of Yahweh?

What does Yahweh bring to the picture?

Secondly, as I understand it, the identity of the judge-god who is doing the speaking is ambiguous. Is it the ‘singular elohim’ doing the judging?

Or is it El?

What’s wrong if El is the judge?

Quote:

The elohim stand in the assembly of El, Among
the elohim He (El) pronounces judgment.

This reading assumes elohim is plural in both instances. You don’t have to break any rules to allow for the inconsistency. It’s simpler and makes more sense (at least to me).

Finally regarding verse 6:

Quote:

I myself presumed that You are gods, Sons of the Most High (Elyon), Yet like
humans you will die, And fall like any prince.

The Hebrew doesn’t say presume. It says said. The word in question is 'amar (Strong's 0559). It is the same word used in Genesis 1:3 where the elohim create things by decree.

Quote:

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Maybe the author of Psalm 82:6 is pretending that El created the elohim by decree.

For example:

Quote:

I created you as gods, Sons of the Most High, Yet like humans you will die …

Am I making any sense?

It looks to me like Psalm 82 is undoing what Deuteronomy 32:8-9 does.

Deut has Yahweh being assimilated into El-worship under the guise of one of El’s sons.

Psalm 82 is kicking the sons out. It is definitely a move towards monotheism, but I see no reason to conclude that the prevailing god is Yahweh. I think it is El, and I think the text even says so.

Any counter-arguments are welcome.

Ratel · 06-03-2005, 07:18 PM

re: post #3, no problem, Loomis, there are so many experts here that it is rare that I feel able to contribute intelligently to any discussion. I've learned a lot more here by lurking than I could ever offer posting.

Thanks for the link to the new Bible translation info.

06-03-2005, 08:34 AM	#2
Ratel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: SD, USA Posts: 268	Try Barker I think Margaret Barker has some writings that follow this theory- "The Great Angel- Israel's other God" is one title. I believe she mentions the identification of Yahweh with Jesus (rather than with God the Father) in early Christianity. Here's a review of that book: http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/rpbarker.html I've read some of her essays on this topic floating around the internet-you might want to google her and see what comes up. I've found Christians, even liberal ones, get rather worked up about some of her ideas, so judge for yourself.

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06-03-2005, 11:17 AM	#4
CJD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: greater Orlando area Posts: 832	Here I go, pushing this article again … Regarding early Christianity's identification of Jesus with YHWH, see this article (in .pdf) by Richard Bauckham. Best, CJD

06-03-2005, 01:15 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Loomis - the article does discuss Jewish monotheism. I haven't read it, but it might shed some light. We do not generally allow people to control the ideology of those answering their OP's, especially in this forum, which aims at a full debate of issues.

06-03-2005, 07:18 PM	#9
Ratel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: SD, USA Posts: 268	re: post #3, no problem, Loomis, there are so many experts here that it is rare that I feel able to contribute intelligently to any discussion. I've learned a lot more here by lurking than I could ever offer posting. Thanks for the link to the new Bible translation info.

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