aa5874

The TF, Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3, and 20.9.1 were forged after the writing called “Against the Galilleans” by Julian the Emperor.

This is Julian the Emperor in “Against the Galilleans” Based on Julian, no well-known writer wrote about Jesus or Paul up to the time of his writing of “Against Galilleans”, which has been dated to around 363 or 364 CE.

Now, in “Church History” supposedly written by Eusebius, passages about Jesus, claimed to have been written by Josephus, can be found, namely Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 and 20.9.1 but Eusebius is claimed to have died around 340 CE. about 20 years before “Against the Galilleans”.

So, at around 363/364 CE, Julian challenged every single person in the whole Roman Empire to show him a well-known writer that wrote about Jesus and Paul. It is evident that Julian the Emperor did not see or hear of any well-known writer who wrote about Jesus or Paul.

It would appear that Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 and 20.9.1 were forged in response to the Julian’s challenge and was probably done after Julian had died.

It should be noted that Josephus was a well known writer in the 1st century.

And it would also appear that Eusebius did not forge the TF or 20.9.1, if he died before long before “Against the Galilleans” was written.

Toto

Josephus did not write during the time of Tiberius or Claudius. Look up the dates for yourself. Even if the TF were not forged, it would not be a contemporary account.

Nice try, but no cigar.

aa5874

Your response is extremely weak.

Josephus wrote about events during the time of Tiberius and Cladius and did not mention Jesus or Paul. And further, Josephus was a contemporary of the so-called Paul. Josephus was of that time and wrote about that time.

It should be obvious that a person could have written during the time of Tiberius and still not write about Jesus or Paul. Based on the NT, a person writing before the 15th reign of Tiberius would probably have nothing to write about Jesus.

It is clear that Julian asked for well known writers who wrote about events during the reign of Tiberius and Claudius that mentioned Paul and Jesus. And there were none.

And it must be obvious that a writer normally would write after the event unless he was a prophet or soothsayer.

This is Julian asking for well-known writers who wrote about EVENTS during the time of Tiberius and Claudius that mention Paul or Jesus.

Against the Galileans It is clear that the TF was not yet forged when Julian wrote Against the Galilleans.

Toto

I can think of a number of reasons why Julian would not have counted the TF as a "mention" by a "well known writer of the time."

Josephus was not a well known writer in the reign of Tiberius or Claudius. He was well known in Julian's time, but he was a favorite of Christians, not pagans or Jews, so Julian would not have looked on him favorably, and might have discounted him. (Does Julian ever quote him? Julian's works do not seem to be online.)

Josephus was a contemporary of Paul, and does not mention him in his later writing; and it is clear that, even if the TF is even partially authentic, that it is a third hand account, and is not based on Josephus' personal knowledge.

Or maybe the forgery was so obvious to Julian that he thought it would be obvious to anyone that this passage was bogus.

the_cave

But was not a "well-known writer of that time", as he only wrote many decades later. Julian demands a writer of that time, then qualifies what time he means by referring to the reigns of Tiberius and Claudius. Josephus was not a writer of (here meaning "from") the reign of Tiberius and Claudius.

Hey, tell it to Julian

No.

Yes, but they also had to be contemporary writers. Contemporary historians--you might call them "journalists".

You can repeat this phrase as often as you like, but it doesn't add anything to your argument.

Note that even if you are right--or even if you are wrong, but the TF was nevertheless a forgery--that the forgery could still date to Eusebius. If Eusebius made a forgery, it would take some time--probably decades, at least--to circulate around the Mediterranean. As though the TF was magically inserted into all the copies of Antiquities throughout the empire!

aa5874

This is another pathetic response.

Writers of antiquity mentioned Josephus before Julian wrote "Against the Galilleans". It must be or likely that Julian would have reviewed the writers of that time who wrote about events with respect to Tiberius and Claudius.

And it is almost certain that Julian, in order to write his book "Against the Galilleans", did some detailed research surrounding the alleged time and activities of the Galilleans.

This is Julian, he must have done some historical research to come to his conclusion.

Against the Galileans

aa5874

Nonsense.

Julian himself is writing in the 4th century about events in the 1st century. A person writing during the actual time of Tiberius and Claudius did not have to write about events at that time. A 1st century writer can write about events hundreds of years before, just like Julian did in Against the Galilleans.

It is most obvious that Julian is looking for people who wrote about EVENTS during the time of Tiberius and Claudius, when Paul and Jesus supposedly lived, to see if they mentioned Paul or Jesus.

It is known that there were at least two Jewish writers of that time, who wrote about events around the time of the reign of Tiberius and Claudius, Philo and Josephus. Julian was not aware that any of these writers wrote anything about Jesus or Paul.

But further, Julian did not even have to be aware of Josephus, he just would have needed to read Church History by Eusebius or to have been notified that Eusebius did identify a passage in Antiquities of the Jews where a well-known writer Josephus mentioned Jesus.

And by the way, in the 4th century when Eusebius and Julian wrote, Josephus was regarded as a well-known writer.

The Antiquities of the Jews appears to have been forged in response to Julian's challenge.

the_cave

Very true--and yet, that is in fact what Julian is asking for. A person writing during the actual time of Tiberius and Claudius, about events at that time. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Julian.

No, it is not most obvious.

And, who also wrote during the time of Tiberius and Claudius.

Philo, yes, Josephus, no. Josephus wrote a bit later. I imagine Julian is thinking of Philo.

In that case, Julian was unaware of Eusebius. So what? See my earlier point about the time it would have taken to transmit an interpolation into all available copies of Antiquities.

It's equally possible that Justin knew all about the TF, but suspected it was a forgery. Hence his call for witnesses more contemporary than Josephus (like Philo).

You seriously think Eusebius could have written the TF without bothering to interpolate it into Antiquities?

aa5874

Well, once you admit that people who wrote during the time of Tiberius and Claudius did not have to write about events during that time, then it must be logical that Julian wanted writers who wrote about events during the time of Tiberius and Claudius.

If you wanted to know what Jesus, Paul, Tiberius, Claudius, Nero or Augustus did during an event, you must get a writer who wrote about the event. That is just so obvious.


You must be joking.

You are just guessing and making unsubstantiated claims.

What are you talking about?

The Emperor Julian asked for writers who wrote about Jesus and Paul and there was none. It must be obviuos that he did not hear or see any writings from any well-known writer that mentioned Paul or Jesus even after Church History was written.

IamJoseph

When the implications of this is considered, and if they are ever proven or accepted as credible - especially when no contradicting hard facts are available: what does it say of the Gospel writers, and who are its most effected victims? Not even the jews - who have paid the greatest price for some 2000 years.

The greatest effected victims here are those who took on board such falsehoods - it leaves them in an absolute abyss. And its not a jewish CONSPIRACY - its a reflection where the Protocols of Zion and the blood Libels come from. Christians cannot be accounted as totally innocent here - they accepted the unacceptable without asking for acceptable proof - which is in total contradiction of the mandated laws in the hebrew bible concerning accusations and charges. Christians remain silent today when the blood libels and the Protocols are pervasive in the world as historical truth - even when Christians themselves perpetrated this stuff, knowing it came from Europe's own christian backyards:

'YOU SHALL NOT WITNESS THE BLOOD OF AN INNOCENT AND REMAIN SILENT'.

'A FALSEHOOD AND THE HOLY ONE CANNOT ABIDE TOGETHER'