cgordon

So many things not right about that statement ...

IBelieveInHymn

God told them 'DO NOT EAT FROM THIS TREE'. Satan comes along and says It's ok to eat from this tree. So, with that being said, I believe they had the knowledge of right and wrong. They didn't gain knowledge of good vs. evil until they disobeyed God. This is how Satan tricked them. They disobeyed God and they obeyed evil.

There is nothing about the "fall of man" being predestined by God. The only ones responsible for the fall of man is man himself. God has nothing to do with the choices we make. He allows us to make our own choices.

Sheshbazzar

So how many millions of additional Bible reading closet christians do you think are cowering in these countries?
I have Islamic family members and friends, none of them are very impressed by your Bible, and wouldn't care to waste their time in reading it even if their Imam and mosque recommended their doing so.
Some have lived here in the US their entire lives, and can read any religious writings they want within the privacy of their own homes, guess what?
They are not enthralled by your Jewish/Christian religions claims, and very, very few ever choose to switch to Christianity.
Not because they are afraid, but because its claims just do not wash.

cgordon

When Christians are telling us how right they are, all nominitave Christians are counted, but when it comes down to actual differences in their various and contradictory doctrine and dogma, there appear to be no True Christians (tm) in the end.

IBelieveInHymn

I don't know, but I can give you several links providing the information on Christians who are sent to prison for life sentences or executed for reading the bible in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

So what does that mean? I'm not talking about your family members. I'm talking about those poor Muslims in 3rd world countries that fear death by just doing nothing but reading a bible in their own home. Many Muslims are starting to realize their Holy Qu'ran is a jibberish text written by someone with poor hand writing skills. And some Muslims are starting to realize their Holy Qu'ran is just a spin off of Christianity.


Ask your family members why the perfect word of Allah says the Christianity Holy Trinity includes the Holy Virgin? Bring your family members to this discussion board, and I will show them the Qu'ran is false, and Muhammed is the false prophet that will deceive the world.

dog-on

Where does God say, "and by the way, pay no attention to the talking snake."

Where does God say, "and by the way, not listening to me is wrong."

Hell, where does God give them the slightest chance to not screwup?

Isn't it more likely that later religious belief has simply twisted the crap out of an old tale that was never meant to be read in a "christian" context.

Dark Virtue

Your knowledge and interpretation of the Bible is truly mindboggling.

How the hell are you coming to your conclusions? They didn't know good and evil until they disobeyed God? That's not what the Bible says...

Their eyes would not be opened until they actually ATE of the fruit...which is why God didn't want them eating it, because in so doing, they would know good and evil.

Notice this verse...

This was AFTER THEY ATE THE FRUIT. Only then did they know good from evil.

You have a serious misunderstanding of scripture and you claim WE'RE the ones that don't understand the Bible??

You can't claim the fall of man or the entire scenario of the Garden of Eden wasn't predestined by God. How can that be if God is omniscient. Omniscience assumes that God knew exactly what choice man would make before he even created the universe.

If you're going to buy into this story, you have to believe that God WANTED all of this to happen. Otherwise, he could have done something to prevent it.

Look at it this way...if you're a parent, you tell your child not to touch the flame on the stove because they will get hurt. One day, you see them reaching their hand out to touch the flame. As a loving parent, wouldn't you reach out to stop them? Or, like God, do you let them burn themselves to teach them a lesson? And then kick them out of the house because you told them not to do it!

I think you fail to realize that there are many of us that were Christians and who understand the Bible FAR better than you do.

bacht

Yes, but a parent can't prevent every mishap, and children will experiment and even deliberately disobey parents. And children eventually must leave the parental home to become adults, voluntarily or not.

There's so much theological baggage put on this story. It's really just a re-telling of older Mesopotamian stories about the creation of humans, and how the gods allowed them to survive in spite of their irritating behaviour.

Sheshbazzar

"You have NOT chosen Me, but I have chosen you"__

Ye [are] my witnesses, saith YHWH, and My servant whom I have chosen:

"I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to My people, MY chosen."

"And you shall leave your name for a curse unto MY chosen:"

" I YHWH have spoken it, and I will do it."

"Is it not lawful for ME to do what I WILL with mine own?"

"If any man will do HIS will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of Elohim.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom HE called, them HE also justified:
and whom HE justified, them HE also glorified".

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with Elohim?
Elohim forbid!
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of Elohim that sheweth mercy. (to whom HE will....or WILL NOT)

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath He mercy on whom he will [have mercy],
and whom He will (not), He hardeneth."
(HE, YHWH is the one pulling the strings, and making these choices, not men)

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against Elohim?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it;
'Why hast thou made me thus?'

Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if Elohim, willing to shew His wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which HE had afore prepared unto glory, (HE alone does it, and brings HIS will to pass)

Even us, whom HE hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As HE saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living Elohim.

Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

For HE will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will YHWH make upon the earth.


"Then said I, Lo, I come.
(in the volume of the book it is written of ME,)
To do THY will, O Elohim."


Again, this is YHWH carrying out HIS 'will' and HIS 'plan', making HIS choices, forming and fashioning men and events to the accomplishment of HIS will,
a plan which no man (or serpent) can at all hinder or resist.

Amaleq13

Since that appears to have been true throughout the history of mankind, your "ancient Fathers" were doing nothing but predicting that people would generally remain the same. Wow.

That is much more likely to allow you to keep your beliefs than rational thought.