Sarai

Hi Magdlyn & Spin!

I'm sorry for not responding to both of your very informed and thought-provoking posts earlier. Forgive me, I was out of town for 5 days and had no internet access. Now, I'm going to dive into the books of the Maccabbees as Spin recommended and see if I can't confuse myself further! I'll be back...

Sarai

mountainman

In noticed a claim on this page:


And then further ....


Here's something else that may be of interest.
Taken from here:

Huon

A small nitpick, which is not directly related with the OP. Albigenses and Cathari are the same people, under two different names. "Cathari" means "the Pure Ones", and is a greek word. "Albigenses" is a low-roman word, and means "the people who live in Albi, or near Albi". Albi is a town of SW France, not far from Toulouse.

Huon

Vaticanus and Sinaïticus are dated from the Fourth Century (300-400) and cannot be a proof of the ideas of Marcion. At best, they show that the play of words "Christos"-"Chrestos" was existing at that time, and that the scribes were aware of that. Jesus' normal title could also be "the Lord".

mountainman

I was under the impression that opinion places these codexes
in the late fourth century (350-400), and since many commentators
suppose them descendant from the Constantine Bible.


Best wishes,



Pete Brown

Sarai

Hi again, I hope you're not sick of me yet because I'm back in need of more guidance. What can I say--:huh: --I'm still new to all this!

OK, I know this is true for the early years, but what about during the early "proto-Christian" years? Did they use the Greek equivalent of "Jew"? As I mentioned before, I can't read Greek, so I'm at the mercy of English translations when it comes to the NT. (I know, I know...I really should make the effort to learn Greek!) In the translations I've read they all use the English term "Jew". Would the term used in the gospels and Paul be more accurately translated as Judean or Israelite?

I think this is important because it puts a whole different slant on the NT if the terminology used in the NT originals is specific to either the Northern or the Southern Kingdoms. It seems to me that it would change the context of what was said and done.

I agree, spin--actually I think the whole chapter sheds light on the subject. The author specifies "Galilee of the Gentiles (or heathens)" as does Isaiah in 9:1 which I read as "Gelil ha-Goyim", with a rough meaning of "circle or circuit of the gentiles(or heathens)", which leads me to believe the Jewish population was a minority in Galilee at the time 1 Macc was written. That supposition is further strengthened when the author goes on to say that after Simon defeated the gentiles of Galilee he led all the Galileean Jews (with their families & belongings) back to Judea, presumably to relocate them. All is probably hyperbole, so I'd guess that "many" would be a better term than "all". If that's the case, it doesn't seem that there could have been very many Jews in Galilee in the first place (just due to the logistics of moving a large population) and even less after the move.

That brings me to the other citation which uses the term "Gelil ha-Goyim"--Isaiah 9:1. From what I've read, this section of Isaiah is part of the "early" Isaiah and so dates to the period of King Ahaz of Judea, putting it around 735-719 BCE. For about 150-180 years, the Galilee had been under the purview of Aramean Damascus and had just recently (in the past several years) fallen into the hands of Assyria and had its population carried off. So I think at this point in time, we're talking very few "You-Know-Who" worshippers. (I apologize--there's still a few things I'm superstitious about--forgive me! :blush: You guys can do it, but I still get a chill up my spin at the idea of me writing it.)

I'm just getting the feeling that there was very little in Galilee during the 2nd temple period that could be called "Jewish", "Israelite", "Judean", etc. And I don't see anything to associate the area with Samaria, since they seem to have been on separate paths for about 700 years. Am I missing something? Is there a later connection to Samaria that I'm not seeing? It would certainly make for a neat and tidy dovetail for the "messiahship" in question to be a Samaritan product, but was there any real connection between Samaria and Galilee at the time?

I'm sorry this post droned on so long...I promise to keep the next one short!

Sarai

Chris Weimer

This is actually a topic of contention. The Greek word is always ιουδαιος. Some scholars posit that we should use the word "Judean" instead. Some say that we should make a distinction between "Judean" and "Jew". The issue is not near settled.

Sarai

Hi Chris--Thanks for the info, but well, goodness...I guess I should have known! Nothing about my new topic of interest is proving to be easy. :devil1: Oh well, it makes it that much more fascinating. Maybe I really should start learning Greek?

Sarai

PS: I kept it short, as promised!

Magdlyn

There are 3 (iirc) positive stories about Samaritans in the NT.

As far as whether there were any you-know-who (Voldemort? ) worshipers in the northern kingdom after the Assyrian invasion, remember, there is evidence that YHWH was worshiped by Samaria and much of the whole region, just as part of a pantheon which included the great Asherah and the lesser grain gods Tammuz and Baal. It's not that no one was worshiping YHWH, it's just that the Deuteronomists were so invested in Jerusalem centralized monotheism (for economic and political purposes, imo, not necessarily out of piety).

Jesus, as a northerner, excoriating the Judaeans as hypocrites, makes a lot more sense than just one Jew dissing another, doesn't it?

We still call it Judaism, and in German, Jews is spelt Juden. Somewhere along the way, the English term for Jew lost its "d".


Isn't the Hebrew word goyim properly translated as nations? Using the word gentile or heathen is too loaded for me. Nations, meaning simply, "the others."

Sarai

Great stuff, Magdlyn...and I can say Voldemort out loud! So from here on out if I say Voldemort instead of you-know-who, you'll all know what I mean, right??? I have a ton more for which I'm going to ask your opinion and clarification, but first I have to go to dinner and then on to services. I'll be back later this evening...if I manage to stay awake through Temple!

Sarai