semiopen

I think you gave Num 22 as the 2 magicians link in the original post but actually it is here

http://targum.info/pj/pjex6-9.htm

I thought that Jambres was supposed to be Mambres so that is a little odd, especially since the translator seems to be careful with the names - not to mention that there is no J sound in Hebrew (or Aramaic to my knowledge). Also, the hachems is kind of weird... that is chochams in Hebrew (wise guys). I'd check that word out, if I was going to try to determine when this passage was written.

We are still at the original question, is this written prior to 2 Timothy?

Duvduv

The Hebrew spellings are with the letter yud- Yambris and Yanis.
Anyway, my point was simply that it would seem awfully peculiar for a writer sending a letter to gentiles to use an obscure metaphor not provided in the Torah which would be unknown to them (i.e. Titus) unless the recipient was a Jew because the author assumed the recipient was very familiar with the scenario of the metaphor. Thus, the letter has this good reason for being composite from a letter to a Jew from a Jew with a few inserted Christian references.

semiopen

Nobody responding to this thread has said the concept isn't Jewish - there might be a possibility it isn't. The issue is on what source was used by the writer of 2 Timothy.

Penitence_of_Jamnes_and_Mambres

The fact that pseudo-Jonathan or whatever doesn't say Mambres is important. Assuming there was a Mambres, changing it to Jambres seems goyishe.

Also the J instead of the Yud is odd, the translator goes through the trouble of saying Mosheh (not even Moshe) and Aharon. Why use the goyishe Js.

Chocham might appear in the Talmud, it does appear in the Haggadah where this term is used for the wise son.

A lot of this is dependent on when 2 Timothy was written. I think this is 2nd or 3rd century but I'm not sure I even heard of this thing before this thread was started. If the first usage is from after 2 Timothy, then this means this particular example can be discarded as a possible source.

I'm not familiar enough with your scholarship style Duvi. Do we take the earliest possible for Talmudic stuff and the latest possible date for Christian?

Anyways, my hurried and probably defective analysis suggests that this doesn't seem like a reliable candidate for a source for 2 Timothy.

semiopen

Chocham is actually used in Exodus so that is not an issue

וַיִּקְרָא֙ גַּם־פַּרְעֹ֔ה לַֽחֲכָמִ֖ים וְלַֽמְכַשְּׁפִ֑ים וַיַּֽעֲשׂ֙וּ גַם־הֵ֜ם חַרְטֻמֵּ֥י מִצְרַ֛יִם בְּלַהֲטֵיהֶ֖ם כֵּֽן׃
(Exo 7:11 WTT)

לַֽחֲכָמִ֖ים wise men

Then Pharaoh, for his part, summoned the wise men and the sorcerers; and the Egyptian magicians, in turn, did the same with their spells; (Exo 7:11 TNK)

But Pharoh called the hachems and magicians; and they also, Janis and Jamberes, magicians of Mizraim, did the same by their burnings of divination. (Exo 7:11 PJE)

וקרא לחוד פרעה לחכימייא ולחרשׁייא ועבדו לחוד הינון יניס וימבריס חרשׁין דבמצרים בלחשׁי קוסמיהון היכדין ׃
(Exo 7:11 PJT)

The last two are pseudo-Jonathan.

יניס וימבריס Note the yuds as Duvi mentions. The issue here is that Jamberes (the last one - to the left) should start with a Mem. I don't see how that can be reconciled, this spelling seems to be Christian.

Duvduv

The fact that the extant Samaritan Torah integrates so much from the Targum Jonathan either means that the Samaritan Torah is later than the alleged date of Jonathan or that one or both are based on earlier unwritten traditions. However as far as I know, no one has ever alleged that the Samaritan Torah is merely a creative midrashic document authored after the 7th century. Especially since the Samaritan Torah also contains material from Targum Onkelos.
The Pirkei de Rabbi Eliezer could not have been a late product if the Quran makes use of it as well as Midrash Rabba.

Finally, the context of 2Timothy cannot be ignored. Why would the author use such an obscure metaphor in an alleged letter of interest to gentiles UNLESS the original letter was not written to gentiles at all but to Jews familiar with midrashic stories?

semiopen

Aside from Andrew Criddle's recommendation which is expensive and not in electonic format.

The Old English Lives of St. Margaret (or via: amazon.co.uk)

isn't that cheap either but at least it is on Google books

http://books.google.com/books?id=i_F...ambres&f=false

should hopefully show a page discussing Mambres.

The "Jewish" source appears to be the Damascus Scroll (DSS and/or Cairo Geniza) dated to 100 BE. This is important because one of the guy's names is Mambres. I haven't found a link to the Damascus Document text.

Unless there is some evidence to the contrary, the Targumic use of Jambres instead of Mambres, most likely comes from the copying of the legend from 2 Timothy or whatever. The Targums we are discussing are almost certainly more recent that 2 Timothy despite Duvi's painful squealing to the contrary.

It's possible that my view can also be refuted by showing a Jewish source for Jambres but I haven't found one.

Duvi's last two posts (which are basically identical) go into the epistle nature of 2 Timothy, which I can't comment on. But it doesn't seem very convincing.

Duvduv

I love the expression "most likely."
Most likely based on your speculation.
In any case the author of Timothy was supposed to be a Jew writing to gentiles. And in the context that scenario makes no sense despite you distractions.
Would the Greek gentile know or appreciate the metaphor of Yambres and Yanes?
I doubt it greatly.

andrewcriddle

There is a review apocryphon-jannes-and-jambres which gives a good summary of the contents of the book.

Andrew Criddle