hbk

hi
As much as i know, christians believe that Jesus died for christians' sins. So, does that mean, whatever a christian does he will get forgiven because Jesus died on the cross. If a christian kills, does adultery, steals, lies and does all kinds of stuff he will still go to heaven because he is a christian, is it right? What about the people that lived before Jesus and believed in God? Will their sins be forgiven too?

Harry Bosch

Yes, there have been Billions of people throughout history who have never heard of Jesus. And there still are people in Africa and Asia who will never hear of Jesus. I think that most Christians will tell you that they won’t go to hell if they never hear of Jesus. However, if they do hear of Jesus, and don’t immediately convert then they go to hell. So if you think about it, there would be fewer people going to hell if the Missionaries would quit their work!

ioPiX

How about people who never hear of Jesus but commit the worst sin?

hbk

how about people never hear of jesus but live a life better than a christian? how about people who hear of jesus and even believe in jesus and commit the worst sin?

Vorkosigan

Looks lke GRD to me...

jbernier

There is certainly a strand of thought that goes this way. However, I think that it is rooted in an oversimplication of Paul. It is true that Paul is adamant that our saved through the "faith of Jesus" (not "faith in Jesus", which is a mistranslation started by Luther). More precisely, I see in Paul a notion that in imitating the faith and faithfulness of Jesus we are saved. This is to say that the process of salvation - or, better, "reconciliation" - is a process of continuing conformity to a spiritual ideal embodied in Christ.

Now, before the Protestants get up in arms over works righteousness I must advise them to take a deep breath, watch their blood pressure and read my next few sentences before going crazy. This process of conformity is achieved through the grace of God; to put it otherwise this process occurs both because we have been and in order to be reconciled to God. This is where it gets tricky - we are already are reconciled to God but that reconciliation is still incomplete. This is not unlike the situation where a couple breaks up and gets back together but still has a look of work to do on their relationship.

What this means in practical terms is that those who are in the process of reconciliation with God through the faith of Christ will progressively conform to the ideal embodied in said faith. So, in terms of adultery, one may commit adultery and still be reconciled with God; but if one is in the process of reconciliation with God will find that one's character is progressively incompatible with the desire to commit adultery. In short the process of reconciliation is a process of progressive ethical conscientization - one will become increasingly consciensious as one enters into an ever deeper, dynamic relationship with Christ.

This, I think, is much more compatible with Paul's thought than the form of Christianity you articulated above. Unfortunately the form you articulated is by far the most common here in NA - unfortunate because it allows pretty much no room for ethical reflection, which is what I think is at precisely the core of the Christian message.

McGargoyle

They can't.
According to the bible, the only unforgivable sin is blaspheming the holy spirit, which you can't do if you never heard of it.

Hedshaker

This thread could get entertaining. If you ask ten different Xians a question about Xianity dogma, chances are you'll get ten different answers or variations of an answer.

The atheist point of view is so simple. There is no heavan or hell. When you die it's the end so enjoy life while it lasts.... and remember, a bit of sinning is good for the soul

Orbit

jdlongmire

Progressive sanctification and perseverance...

Zeda

This was one of the doctrines that I was taught as a fundamentalist baptist that really bothered me when I was still a Christian.
It seemed wrong to me that a person who tried thier best to live a "good" life would go to hell because they had no faith in Jesus, while a person who intentionally and constantly hurt others, yet had a faith in Jesus would go to Heaven could be a Just and right doctrine. Yet this is in fact what I was taught.

According to this view once you were "adopted" into the family of God, once you were made part of the Church body you could not be cast out or cut off. No matter what.

The idea was that the work of redemption came from Jesus, "we were brought with a price," and nothing that we could do would undo this work.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9