Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 09-12-2011, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Mysteries of Mithra PREDATED the Jesus story based on Justin Martyr over 1800 years ago.

And further, Roger cannot show or establish with any credible sources of antiquity that the Jesus story was WRITTEN before 80 CE and KNOWN before the Mysteries of Mithra.

I am not sure which conversation you are reading, but regarding the discussion in this thread, your comment is a bit irrelevant.

Enough of your diversion tactics.

You stated in this VERY THREAD that "Roger pretty much nailed it" from what I have been able to gather".

Let us NOT divert from your claim. I am responding to YOUR post in the THREAD.

How did you GATHER that "Roger pretty much nailed it" ?

I am asking you to PROVIDE the CORROBORATIVE sources of antiquity that you USED to demonstrate "Roger pretty much nailed it."

dog-on · 09-12-2011, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

I am not sure which conversation you are reading, but regarding the discussion in this thread, your comment is a bit irrelevant.

Enough of your diversion tactics.

You stated in this VERY THREAD that "Roger pretty much nailed it" from what I have been able to gather".

Let us NOT divert from your claim. I am responding to YOUR post in the THREAD.

How did you GATHER that "Roger pretty much nailed it" ?

I am asking you to PROVIDE the CORROBORATIVE sources of antiquity that you USED to demonstrate "Roger pretty much nailed it."

Because I have not been able to find anything to corroborate the story that the roman version had anything more in common with the Persian version, other than, possibly, the name Mithras and even that is debatable.

If you have something, preferably from the Persians, I would be happy to see it.

aa5874 · 09-12-2011, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

I am not sure which conversation you are reading, but regarding the discussion in this thread, your comment is a bit irrelevant.

Enough of your diversion tactics.

You stated in this VERY THREAD that "Roger pretty much nailed it" from what I have been able to gather".

Let us NOT divert from your claim. I am responding to YOUR post in the THREAD.

How did you GATHER that "Roger pretty much nailed it" ?

I am asking you to PROVIDE the CORROBORATIVE sources of antiquity that you USED to demonstrate "Roger pretty much nailed it."

Because I have not been able to find anything to corroborate the story that the roman version had anything more in common with the Persian version, other than, possibly, the name Mithras and even that is debatable.

If you have something, preferably from the Persians, I would be happy to see it.

So, you NOW admit that you have GATHERED NOTHING. "You are unable to find anything."

You have GATHERED NOTHING to corroborate your claim that "Roger pretty much nailed it"

Do you now understand that it is your claim about Roger that was irrelevant and unsubstantiated?

aa5874 · 09-12-2011, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Avi, the Romans had a penchant for using bits and pieces, as the saw fit. Heck, just look at what they made of Judaism...

You are promoting logical Fallacies.

"Heck, just look at what they made of Judaism......" has ZERO value as evidence to resolve the issue at hand.

Even the Catholics ADMIT that Mithraism was ESTABLISHED since BEFORE 4 BCE or BEFORE Alexander the Great.

SEE http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

Quote:

A pagan religion consisting mainly of the cult of the ancient Indo-Iranian Sun-god Mithra.

It entered Europe from Asia Minor after Alexander's conquest, spread rapidly over the whole Roman Empire at the beginning of our era, reached its zenith during the third century, and vanished under the repressive regulations of Theodosius at the end of the fourth century.

Of late the researches of Cumont have brought it into prominence mainly because of its supposed similarity to Christianity.

ORIGIN.

The origin of the cult of Mithra dates from the time that the Hindus and Persians still formed one people, for the god Mithra occurs in the religion and the sacred books of both races, i.e. in the Vedas and in the Avesta.....

Roger NAILED nothing but himself.

It is UNIVERSALLY known and accepted that Mithraism PREDATED the Jesus story by HUNDREDS of years because Mithra is FOUND in TEXT that are hundreds of years BEFORE the Jesus story.

"The Persian Mithraism not the Roman Mithraism" is a strawman argument. The very worse thing is to accept the opinion of a one-man investigation who has a clear agenda.

aa5874 · 09-12-2011, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

...This is the problem: that the Cumontian theory has become widely disseminated, despite being no longer held by the Mithras scholars, and other scholars tend to repeat it, unaware that it is not longer correct. This is why you can't simply trust as reliable anything with a university press label on it. Frend is a very serious scholar of early Christian archaeology -- but on Mithras he is no better informed than you or I....

So, why should people trust you Roger Pearse when you are simply discreditting those who disagree with you.

Everybody is wrong so you are right!!!

You are joking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

....Unfortunately it is a bad translation, omitting many of the notes, and all of the collection of data. It is, in short, really only the theory that Cumont put forward (which it does not evidence), rather than the massive and still-useful collection of data which the translator chose to omit.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Your translation is the right translation? You know the right translation? Come on Roger.

What can you translate? Who told you that the translation was bad?

I really don't know how you can tell a bad translation from a good one.

You have originals??

Toto · 09-12-2011, 12:33 PM

I suspect that Roger Pearse has aa5874 on ignore and will not be responding to him.

dog-on · 09-13-2011, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Avi, the Romans had a penchant for using bits and pieces, as the saw fit. Heck, just look at what they made of Judaism...

You are promoting logical Fallacies.

"Heck, just look at what they made of Judaism......" has ZERO value as evidence to resolve the issue at hand.

Even the Catholics ADMIT that Mithraism was ESTABLISHED since BEFORE 4 BCE or BEFORE Alexander the Great.

SEE http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

Quote:

A pagan religion consisting mainly of the cult of the ancient Indo-Iranian Sun-god Mithra.

It entered Europe from Asia Minor after Alexander's conquest, spread rapidly over the whole Roman Empire at the beginning of our era, reached its zenith during the third century, and vanished under the repressive regulations of Theodosius at the end of the fourth century.

Of late the researches of Cumont have brought it into prominence mainly because of its supposed similarity to Christianity.

ORIGIN.

The origin of the cult of Mithra dates from the time that the Hindus and Persians still formed one people, for the god Mithra occurs in the religion and the sacred books of both races, i.e. in the Vedas and in the Avesta.....

Roger NAILED nothing but himself.

It is UNIVERSALLY known and accepted that Mithraism PREDATED the Jesus story by HUNDREDS of years because Mithra is FOUND in TEXT that are hundreds of years BEFORE the Jesus story.

"The Persian Mithraism not the Roman Mithraism" is a strawman argument. The very worse thing is to accept the opinion of a one-man investigation who has a clear agenda.

Like I said, if you have any evidence from the Persians that tie their beliefs into what the Romans believed, I would like to see it.

Whether the Romans coopted some bits of pre-existing ideas is besides the point, as they were well known for doing exactly that.

aa5874 · 09-13-2011, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Like I said, if you have any evidence from the Persians that tie their beliefs into what the Romans believed, I would like to see it....

What!!! It was you who claimed that YOU GATHERED that Roger nailed it and have FAILED to produce any corroborative source of antiquity for your claim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

...Whether the Romans coopted some bits of pre-existing ideas is besides the point, as they were well known for doing exactly that.

Again, you PROMOTE logical fallacies. "Guilt by association" is a worthless argument. The Romans were well known for X so they did Y although there is NO evidence. What fallacious argument.

The evidence seems to suggest that the Romans may have attempted to ERADICATE Mithraism

See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

Quote:

A pagan religion consisting mainly of the cult of the ancient Indo-Iranian Sun-god Mithra. It entered Europe from Asia Minor after Alexander's conquest, spread rapidly over the whole Roman Empire at the beginning of our era, reached its zenith during the third century, and vanished under the repressive regulations of Theodosius at the end of the fourth century....

dog-on · 09-13-2011, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Like I said, if you have any evidence from the Persians that tie their beliefs into what the Romans believed, I would like to see it....

What!!! It was you who claimed that YOU GATHERED that Roger nailed it and have FAILED to produce any corroborative source of antiquity for your claim.

Again, you PROMOTE logical fallacies. "Guilt by association" is a worthless argument. The Romans were well known for X so they did Y although there is NO evidence. What fallacious argument.

The evidence seems to suggest that the Romans may have attempted to ERADICATE Mithra ism

See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

Quote:

A pagan religion consisting mainly of the cult of the ancient Indo-Iranian Sun-god Mithra. It entered Europe from Asia Minor after Alexander's conquest, spread rapidly over the whole Roman Empire at the beginning of our era, reached its zenith during the third century, and vanished under the repressive regulations of Theodosius at the end of the fourth century....

WTF does Theodosius at the end of the Fourth century have to do with Roman Mithracism is the first?

As you seem to have no evidence from the Persians, I will accept your concession.

aa5874 · 09-13-2011, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Like I said, if you have any evidence from the Persians that tie their beliefs into what the Romans believed, I would like to see it....

What!!! It was you who claimed that YOU GATHERED that Roger nailed it and have FAILED to produce any corroborative source of antiquity for your claim.

Again, you PROMOTE logical fallacies. "Guilt by association" is a worthless argument. The Romans were well known for X so they did Y although there is NO evidence. What fallacious argument.

The evidence seems to suggest that the Romans may have attempted to ERADICATE Mithra ism

See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

Quote:

A pagan religion consisting mainly of the cult of the ancient Indo-Iranian Sun-god Mithra. It entered Europe from Asia Minor after Alexander's conquest, spread rapidly over the whole Roman Empire at the beginning of our era, reached its zenith during the third century, and vanished under the repressive regulations of Theodosius at the end of the fourth century....

WTF does Theodosius at the end of the Fourth century have to do with Roman Mithracism is the first?

As you seem to have no evidence from the Persians, I will accept your concession.

Well, Well, well. WTF does Roger in the 21st century have to do with PERSIAN Mithraism in the 1ST century.

"Where is the corroborative source of antiquity from which you gathered that "Roger nailed it"?

Theodosius was a ROMAN Emperor under whom Mithraism VANISHED which may show that the Romans may have NOT coopted Mithraism but may have wanted to ERADICATE it.

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09-12-2011, 12:33 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I suspect that Roger Pearse has aa5874 on ignore and will not be responding to him.

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