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Old 07-10-2008, 02:05 PM   #151
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When believers in Historical Jesus demand Primary Sources then it just makes me laugh my ass off.

Do you believe that primary sources are required to justify beliefs?

Do you believe that primary sources are required to justify arguments?

Where is your primary source for historical Jesus?

What is your justification, beyond bald hypocrisy, for demanding that Alesiah provide a primary source for her beliefs about the mere content of ancient astrotheological superstitions; when you do not provide any primary source for your belief that one of these ancient superstitions were based on a real person?

She is only asserting that ancient people believed these things, while your asserting something far beyond what she is asserting.

You assert that one of these ancient superstitions had some basis in fact.

Where is your primary source for historical Jesus?

A primary source is an artifact contemporaneously generated by an historical fact that it evidences, or a document written immediately after an historical fact that it evidences, without any reasonable suspicion that it is not reliable.

What artifacts were contemporaneously generated by the existence of your historical Jesus?

What documents were written contemporaneously with or immediately after the life of historical Jesus?

It is far more likely that Alesiah's unsupported assertions about contents of ancient beliefs are true, then your silly unsupported belief that superstitions such as Thor, Heracles, Dionysus, Zeus, Adonis/Tammuz, Attis, Horus, Nimrod, Mithras, Jesus or whatever are historical persons.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:37 PM   #152
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Could you please provide the primary sources that support these claims ?
Which claims? Could you be specific...

We have the commonly known "facts" such as, in the Northern Hemisphere...around March/April and technically after March 21, the Spring Equinox..Spring Season begins and consists of.....budding, germination, fertilization, the breeding season or conception..
Haven't you ever heard the phrase...Spring has sprung???:huh:

And if you count forward NINE months after the Spring Equinox...which is just simple addition...that will bring you to December.
After the Winter Solstice, the longest night of the year, the "days" begin to get longer.. That's where much of the ancient solar deity god stories come from...

It was extremely important for the ancients to predict the seasons and weather conditions because their lives depended on crops and live stock for food..

Just let me know specifically which you are referring to such as, Solar Astronomical sources or ancient solar dieties sources,and or etc......and I'll get you some sources..
I do not disagree with what you said, but in this forum, when you make a positive factual statement, and do not cite a reference, then its likely that someone will ask you for a citation. You can ignore the comment, or admit that you do not have a citation, or provide the citation, or whatever.

I think that requests for evidence generally adds to the quality of the debate. It helps prevent urban legands and myths from being accepted as facts.

There is nothing wrong with asking them to clerify what fact they want a citation for. You do not need to provide citations for things that are well known. There are people who will try to waste your time by asking for citations as a debating tactic and then ignore your citations. There are other people who are collecting citations for "their paper" and just want you to do the grunt work for them.

If you want to claim that there are "December born sun gods" then someone will likely ask you to name those gods and cite the ancient source where it says that they were born in December.

If you claim that some component of the Jesus story is more likely from Pagan sources then a Jewish sources, then you should provide arguments and facts to support your assertion.

Citations to non-acedemic internet sites are not usually accepted as reliable. Citations to popular books on religion and mythology are not usually accepted. Academic books and peer reviewed publications are usually accepted.

There are some rude people in this forum - you are going to see some ignorant comments - try not to get upset.

Do not take it personally, everyone here gets stoned.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:42 PM   #153
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There is nothing wrong with asking them to clerify what fact they want a citation for. You do not need to provide citations for things that are well known. There are people who will try to waste your time by asking for citations as a debating tactic and then ignore your citations. There are other people who are collecting citations for "their paper" and just want you to do the grunt work for them.
And then there are people who will post long and absolutely uninformed critiques of things they have not read and who will lay claim to knowledge and linguistic skills they do not possess.

Jeffrey
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Old 07-11-2008, 01:26 AM   #154
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But darn, the atheist alliance expresses:

The Winter Solstice is a great time to get together with family and friends, put up some decorations, exchange gifts, and share a meal. Perhaps someday humanity will ... unite to celebrate the Winter Solstice as a truly universal... holiday. The Winter Solstice reminds us of our common ties to nature and to each other. It is a celebration of life!
Sounds a lot like superstition to me. Why does 'life' need to celebrated?

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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Old 07-11-2008, 01:36 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by patcleaver View Post
There is nothing wrong with asking them to clerify what fact they want a citation for. You do not need to provide citations for things that are well known. There are people who will try to waste your time by asking for citations as a debating tactic and then ignore your citations. There are other people who are collecting citations for "their paper" and just want you to do the grunt work for them.
And then there are people who will post long and absolutely uninformed critiques of things they have not read and who will lay claim to knowledge and linguistic skills they do not possess.

Jeffrey
The question, Jeffrey, is the cash value of wholly relative terms like "uninformed", "knowledge" and "linguistic skills" in the context of discussions on a part-public, part-scholarly forum like BC&H, and the degree to which your admirable monomania for intellectual rigour is relevant, versus the degree to which it's simply an irritating distraction, in the context of exchanges of ideas between scholars and interested laypeople.

Sometimes it's highly appropriate. Other times you just remind me of Cato the Elder
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:03 AM   #156
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Some of the gods born in December are listed in this post. Didn't you read it?

http://www.atheistalliance.org/library/AB-Solstice.php

OK, I'll use scholarly sites....I can understand the request... I'm in the medical/dental field and that's all we use for research....

This is a long thread..I didn't read all the posts here on this Horus/Jesus topic so you'll have to direct me to read any counters.. For example, staying on topic...wasn't Horus one of the December born gods...and born of a virgin mother....

We have the story of "Isis and Osiris" yet, Horus's mother, seemed to be identified as the goddess Neith, a virgin mother and Neith worship dates back some 7000 years...In the Book of the Dead, chapter 66..... Stated: I know that I have been conceived by Sechit and that I am born of Neith..

BTW, if I don't answer quickly it's because I'm caring for my husband who has last stage lung cancer...and no he never smoked...
In other words, if I'm silent it's not because I don't have an answer, it's because I have limited time....
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:38 AM   #157
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Some of the gods born in December are listed in this post. Didn't you read it?

http://www.atheistalliance.org/library/AB-Solstice.php
No I didn't -- largely because I asked you to give me the names of these gods. I did not ask to be sent to a site where I had to hunt for them.

On top of that, both Andrew and I have asked you to tell us where in the primary sources the stories which speak of several gods being born conceived in Spring and born in December can be found. The site you sent me too doesn't say. Not a single one of its claims is backed up with a reference to or citation of a primary source.

Quote:
This is a long thread..I didn't read all the posts here on this Horus/Jesus topic so you'll have to direct me to read any counters.. For example, staying on topic...wasn't Horus one of the December born gods...and born of a virgin mother....
Umm ... that's what we've asked you to document.


Quote:
BTW, if I don't answer quickly it's because I'm caring for my husband who has last stage lung cancer...and no he never smoked...
In other words, if I'm silent it's not because I don't have an answer, it's because I have limited time....
My condolences.

Jeffrey
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:41 AM   #158
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Sounds a lot like superstition to me.
There is no credulous belief in or reverence for supernatural entities described. :huh: Sounds like a recognition of our place in the world symbolized by a change in the day:night ratio indicating the coming spring.

Quote:
Why does 'life' need to celebrated?
I guess it doesn't if one is so depressed and unhappy that it doesn't seem like a wonderful, albeit short, unearned opportunity.

I thought having Jesus in your heart was supposed to make one happy. :devil1:
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:03 PM   #159
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This thread goes nowhere. It is as something of a person coming in here trying to either support or deny the established proposition that there is a similarity of the character of Jesus and Horus, when in fact the mere word "coincidence" is not even being considered. I would say that if a person A wants to assert the notion that the historical Jesus character is a hybrid of other historical Characters, is in fact doing what his will wants him to do: that is to denounce the legitimacy of the existance of the historical man named Jesus, Christianity, Religion, or all of them for his own ideological purpose.

Anyone can make anything similar. It takes a clever man to do it, and a stupid person to be bedazzled by the ideal aspect of it.
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:32 PM   #160
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This thread goes nowhere. It is as something of a person coming in here trying to either support or deny the established proposition that there is a similarity of the character of Jesus and Horus, when in fact the mere word "coincidence" is not even being considered. I would say that if a person A wants to assert the notion that the historical Jesus character is a hybrid of other historical Characters, is in fact doing what his will wants him to do: that is to denounce the legitimacy of the existance of the historical man named Jesus, Christianity, Religion, or all of them for his own ideological purpose.

Anyone can make anything similar. It takes a clever man to do it, and a stupid person to be bedazzled by the ideal aspect of it.
Hi Cartesian - not all threads sparkle with intellectual brilliance. Our apologies.

If you don't find the word "coincidence" it might be because all of the participants know that is the default position.

But what is this "legitimacy" of which you speak?
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