Toto

Jagella: Do you date the gospels to the first century? If so, why?

The argument between DtC and you would be resolved if the gospels were written in the 2nd century or later. 1st century Jews did not believe in Hell, but 2nd century Christians did.

HJ = historical Jesus.

Diogenes the Cynic

I've already explained them in their lingusitica and historical context. What rebuttal do you have to reading the references to Gehenna any other way than how ancient Jews used the term either literally or figuratively?
Historical Jesus. I'm asking if you are willing to concede that if Jesus existed, he could not have known or spoken of Christian hell.

Jagella

I do not remember seeing such a distinction made in the definition provided by Webster.

I sure did. I do not wish to repeat myself. If it did me no good the first time, then why should I expect you to get it now?

You mean you’ll brush aside the evidence once again.

I’ve seen this claim before, but it’s far from established. In any event, my argument is that the writers of the New Testament wrote of a hell in which sinners were punished after their deaths—not that the New Testament was necessarily written by Jews.

Of course it wasn’t. Much of it was written a few decades later but still in the first century.

If you insist!

None of them except for the gospel writers. They clearly believed and wrote about a concept of eternal hell which they derived from the Jewish concept of Gehenna.

Does it really matter? You seem determined to believe what you’re saying, and I suppose nobody can change your mind.

Hmmm. What might be your definition of a “credentialed scholar�? Allow me…

credentialed scholar – anybody who says my presuppositions are right

Finally we agree. I’m sure that most of the members here would expect something more sophisticated than insulting one’s opponent.

I can indeed do that, but I decline to do so for two reasons: One, I don’t have the time, and two, I don’t see it as productive in changing the minds of people who adamantly choose to believe something. I left fundamentalism behind when I stopped being a Christian.

Nevertheless, I’m thinking about starting a new thread on this subject. I was not aware that the belief in hell as an annihilation of sinners over that of eternal torment was so much a part of people’s beliefs. Even more, I was not aware that some atheists insisted so strongly that the writers of the New Testament never wrote of hell! That is a surprise for me.

Jagella

Sensei Meela

Sorry to say, but IMHO you're being a little unreasonable here, Jag. To reiterate:
It's really about as black and white as that.

Diogenes the Cynic

Webster is a modern English doctionary. Do you expect it to reiterate that fact with every definition. The whole point of showing the etymology is to show what it used to mean which is not always the same as what it means now.
You provided some examples from the NT which had been incorrectly translated as "hell." I explained to you what those passages referred to in their proper historical and linguistic context. I provided support for my explanations and even your own definitions included etymologies that supported my explanations. You have, as yet, not provoded any sort of argument or evidence as to why those passages should be read with a modern interpretation rather than an ancient one or why Gehenna should be read as anything other than the Valley of Hinnon. I understand that you were not aware of how Gehenna figured into Jewish eschatology and I'm also aware that on a surface level, those passages appear to be speaking of Christian hell. However, you have not offered any reason beyond your initial, surface level understanding of those passages to believe that the standard Jewish eschatological view of Gehenna at the time is not entirely sufficient to explain those passages with mutiplying entia.

IOW, what in those passages contradicts the Jewish eschatological belief that sinners would be cast into Gehenna for annhilation on the last day?
I'm happy to consider any evidence you want to provide. So far you haven't provided any.
Once again, show me anything in the NT that shows anything contradictory to the normal Jewish beliefs at the time that Gehenna was a place for physical annihilation.
That's debatable. Much of it was probably written in the 2nd century. In any case, the earliest canonical gospel was still written at least a generation after the crucifixion and the others even later, so my point stands that they were not written during the time of Jesus.
I invite you to prove me wrong. Show me something in the Gospels which contradicts the standard 1st century view of Gehenna.
You keep saying this but you don't support it with evidence. What do the gospels say that shows a "clear" belief in an eternal hell as opposed to the standard view of Gehenna as a place of annihilation?
Of course it matters. If you're going to cite a "scholar" then cite her credentials. You can't seriously just expect to google a book on Amazon and expect it to be accepted at face value. You could do the same thing with creationism. If you don't know her credentials at least summarize her argument rather than just pasting a bald conclusion.
Credentialed scholar: Someone with at least a graduate level degree in a field relevant to the conversation. Preferably someone who has published something in a peer reviewed journal. I do not require that they agree with me. I've read and learned from a lot of scholars that I disagree with on larger issues because they can make good points on smaller issues (or vice versa). The credentials are enough to make me listen but it's the argument I'm really interested in. How did they arrive a their conclusions? That's what I want to know
I don't "believe" anything. I'm just trying to enlighten you as to what a few Bible passages meant in their cultural and linguistic context. Those are not issues of belief or opinion but known historical fact.
It's not a part of my belief and I don't think anyone else has claimed to believe it either. Just because I say that ancient Jews believed it doesn't mean that I believe it.
You seem to think I have some sort of emotional investment in one interpretation over another. I don't. It wouldn't bother me if the NT spoke of hell. There's a lot in the Bible that I think is repellent. This is not an issue of any sort of a priori desire for me to believe one characterization of Jesus over another. I don't care. I'm just trying to be historically accurate.

Toto

This is Jag's evidence:

Diogenes says that the bosom of Abraham was a temporary place, separated from the rest of Gehenna, for the good guys, but it sounds like at least the beginning of an idea of Hell as punishment.

This source (which I do not vouch for) says:

However, an any case, you cannot show that Luke is first century, and you cannot show when this passage was written.

Amaleq13

Does Encarta identify who is meant by "early Christian writers"? They could very well intend the Church Fathers. If Gospel authors are meant, that is usually specified.

As far as I can tell, the Gospel evidence you've offered describes eternal fires but not eternal suffering. Unless we have some reason to assume the suffering was to be eternal, that isn't an obvious interpretation. Could you identify the passages that you believe describe the suffering as eternal?

Diogenes the Cynic

[NITPICK] It was a separate part of Sheol, not Gehenna. Sheol was the underworld (pretty much the same as Hades), Gehenna was the Valley.

Since the Greeks did have an idea of punishment in Hades, I think this parable shows a pretty late Hellenistic influence. It should be said, however, that Sheol was not eternal. So even the rich man in the Lazarus parable wasn't going to suffer forever.

Sensei Meela

[edit -- never mind; I must be stoned or something. It's pretty clear that Isa 66:22-24 -- which Jesus spoke of -- represents the Jewish belief that the dead who are not brought to eternal life will forever be eaten and burned. Whether this is etarnal punishment or not is probably debateable.]

Diogenes the Cynic

"The worm that never dies" was sort of a poetic allusion to the infestations of maggots and worms crawling around in all those carcasses and piles of garbage. The Valley of Hinnon was not a pleasant place which is why it lent itself so easily to hellish connotations.