Davka

Aw, he'll be allright.

It's the tree I'm worried about.

aeebee50

At least, you do not have to worry about the dog misspelling a word. The dog could use a fur covered helmet, and his fur will protect the tree.

Underseer

At least Simon is acknowledging that it is a contradiction. Most of them will not do that, so I look forward to reading whatever he has to say when he gets back.

Jarhyn

More important than any inconsistency within the bible (which YECers and literalists will always hand-wave away) are the inconsistencies of the bible with what according to them is the direct work of his hands, "creation" itself. Math and Logic and physics are properties of the universe itself; when the bible contradicts those things, I can only marvel at why anyone would pick the indirect work over the direct work as the authority.

simon kole

We have Scripture to thank for that: 1Tim 2:14; 2Co 11:3; Ge 3:1-6.

Saramago

For someone who demurred from addressing the OP in this thread until after 6/23 because he was leaving on vacation this (past) weekend, it seems you have had time & bandwidth to post in several threads here without a substantial break.

Are you going to address the OP in this thread? Is there still something preventing you from doing so for the next few days?

A little devil suggests I ask: Are you waiting for inspiration to strike? :devil:

Saramago

Copied from http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....92#post6834392 in the "Biblical Inconsistencies" thread; another post referring to the topic(s) simon kole says he will be addressing in this thread ("next week"); boldface added by me:

simon kole

There is a basic logical inconsistency in the Bible. The Calvinists take one side, while the Arminians take the other. What is more, both sides are found in Scripture.

Examintion of the Scriptures shows that the key to understanding this seemingly logical contradiction is Dt 29:29 - "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow (obey) all the words of this law."

So do we have an example anywhere in the Bible of these two wills in operation? Yes, we do.

The relationship between the secret things and the revealed things which we are to obey is shown in Ex 7:1-3.
In v.2, God gives his revealed will for Pharoah, "Let Israel go."
Then in v.3, God gives his secret will for Pharoah (secret to Pharoah, but not to Moses), "But I will harden his heart. . .so he will not listen to you."

NB: The first mention of Pharoah's heart in the account (v.3) is that God will harden his heart (also in Ex 4:23; Dt 2:26-30). I'll return to what "hardening the heart" by God involves.

But back to the account. Because God is sovereign, he can ordain in his secret will** that which is contrary to his revealed will.***The Scriptures at the bottom give examples of acts of God** which are diverse from his revealed will.***

Now the implications of Dt 29:29. That God's revealed will (Arminianism) to come, to repent, to believe, to be saved; i.e., words we are to obey (Rev 22:17; Eze 18:32; Mk 1:15; Ac 2:49, 17:30; 1Tim 2:4; 2Pe 3:9, etc.) are in fact disobeyed does not mean that God's secret will (Calvinism) is not done (Mt 18:7; Mk 13:7, 14:21; Jn 13:27; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Ro 11:25; Eph 1:11).

When Scripture indicates that something happens contrary to God's will (Ex 9:17), it is contrary to God's revealed will (Ex 9:13). Nothing is contrary to God's secret will (Ex 4:21; Ps 33:10; Pr 20:24; Is 8:10, 14:24, Lam 3:37; Ac 4:28).

While Scripture shows that God's secret will for men (Ex 10:1-2, 11:910, 14:4, 17) is not always the same as his revealed will for men (Ex 9:13-16), it is his revealed will that is to govern men's actions. His secret will governs his actions. Sometimes those wills coincide, as they did for Paul (Ac 9:15-16); sometimes they do not, as they did not for Pharoah (Ex 4:21-23). But mankind will be judged by the revealed will of God (Arminianism), the words they are to obey, and not by the secret will of God (Calvinism)--Dt 29:29.

And this leads to one more consideration on the subject.
When Scripture declares what man is forbidden to do (revealed will), that is not to say God is forbidden to do it (secret will). Man is forbidden
to hate his enemies (Mt 5:44),
to withhold forgiveness (Mk 11:25),
to take revenge (Lev 19:18),
to retaliate (Lk 6:29),
to judge the hearts of others (Mt 7:1), or
to punish the sons for the sins of their fathers (Dt 24:16).

While God
hates his enemies (Ps 5:5-6, 11:5, 34:16; Pr 3:22, 11:20, 16:5; Jer 12:8),
forgives only those who repent (Mk 1:4, Lk 13:3, 24:27; Ac 3:19, 5:31),
revenges (Na 1:2; Ro 12:19; Rev 19:2),
retaliates (1Sa 15:2-3; 2Pe 2:13),
judges (1Pe 4:5), and
punishes for the sin of the fathers those sons who do not repent of those sins in their own lives (Ex 20:5; Lk 11:48-51).

The God of the Bible is sovereign.
The will of the God of the Bible is not thwarted by men (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35), but quite the contrary (Job 5:12; Ps 33:10).
Nor are the plans of the Bible's God conditioned on, or determined by, the actions of men (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28).
Likewise, he sustains no loss because of the actions of men (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48; Mt 5:26).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing "in advance" what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do.
(See Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26; Ezr 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12; 7:5; Pr 21:1, Eze 14:9; Da 1:9; Jn 6:37; Ac 2;23, 4;28, 13:48; Ro 9:18; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).
God knows in advance what is going to happen, because he has decreed that it shall happen.

So in light of all the Scriptures, there is no basic logical inconsistency in the Bible.

And now to God hardens men's hearts.
Actually, men's hearts are hardened from birth, as the result of Adam's sin (Mk 3:5, 6:43--dulled 8:17-21, 10:5, 16:14; Mt 7:21, 13:14-15, 15:16; Lk 19:42). They have to be "unhardened" (Jn 3:3, 5-6) by God's grace. All God has to do is withdraw his softening grace in order to "harden" men's hearts, or to confirm them in their hardness.

SUMMARY: God not only is sovereign, he also acts sovereignly.
__________

**Ex 9:12; Jdg 9:23; 1Sa 18:10; 1Kgs 22:23; Eze 14:9; Mt 18:7; Mk 13:7, 14:21; Jn 13:27; Ac 2:23, 4:28; Ro 11:31-32

***Ex 9:13; Eze 18:32; Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30; 1Tim 2:4, 4:10; 2Pe 3:9
__________

Davka

Excellent. BibleGod has a double standard, says "do as I say, not as I do," punishes children for the sins of their fathers, and his justification for doing all this is that he can - aka "might makes right."

Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up. And we should follow this god why . . . ?

Oh, that's right! Because he'll send us to eternal torment if we don't. What a glorious deity you worship!

What a relief to discover that he isn't real.

Underseer

Hey now. If he's on vacation, he may not be up to a full-blown carefully researched response, but is still capable of short snarky responses. Goodness knows I've been there.