Johnny Skeptic

Thanks.

Thank you. I revise my two essays at www.johnnyskeptic.com from time to time, most of all my mini-essay. It is my mini-essay that gives Christians the most problems. If you haven't read it lately, please do so when you get some extra time.

I have found out from experience that the apologist is at a loss to adequately defend the nature of God, so my current apporach is not to contest the Resurrection, but to contest the nature of God.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

I do claim Babylon has not been rebuilt, I have presented evidence for that as well. One major piece of evidence I have not mentioned yet would be the ruins of Babylon!

Well, while Babylon was a swamp, Arabs would probably not have been pitching their tents there.

But I did say I can't prove this, quite plainly! Do you not remember? Then I said that neither can you prove this one way or the other, so let's move on.

I think your attempts to disprove other prophecies is good evidence that you are trying to disprove prophecy in the Bible! So rebuilding Babylon, when the Bible says Babylon will never be rebuilt, would be quite clear, and a strong refutation. Sorry, it would be.

Then why are you trying to disprove other prophecies, may I ask?

Regards,
Lee

Johnny Skeptic

What about the time that Babylon was not a swamp?

You have stated on numerous occasions that the Babylon prophecy has been fulfilled, but now you are saying “neither can you prove this one way or the other,� which is exactly what I have been trying to tell you all along. You have just admitted that you do not have any idea whatsoever whether or not the prophecy was fulfilled in all of its aspects.

Don’t you read what I post? Consider the following from my previous post:

As I have told you in the past, the issue of whether or not skeptics and Muslims are missing a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible by invalidating the Babylon prophecy is quite easy to settle without skeptics and Muslims having to make such an attempt. A poll could be conducted where liberal Christians and fundamentalist Christians would be asked the following questions: Would you give up Christianity if Arabs were to pitch their tents in Babylon, or if Babylon were to be rebuilt. The poll could be conducted at the Internet, at Christians churches, and by contacting the national headquarters of all mainline churches. I will help you conduct the research. You can start by contacting the U.S. State Department and ask them the questions that I mentioned. How about it Lee?

What does disproving the Babylon prophecy have to do with disproving other prophecies? I will be more than happy to debate any Bible prophecy with you, but not in this thread.

Regarding me trying to disprove other prophecies, IT IS YOU who are conveniently avoiding discussing the dating of the Tyre prophecy, and the survival of the Jewish people at the thread on that topic.

Your diversionary tactics are dishonest. You are well aware that skeptics and Muslims ARE NOT missing a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible by having Arabs pitch their tents in Babylon, or by rebuilding Babylon. You know that polls would show that if either or both attempts were successful, the Christian Church would for all practical purposes be just as large as it is today, and that U.S. foreign policy towards Muslims would be exactly the same as it is today. Now will you lie to the readers at this forum and claim otherwise?

If scholars at Wheaton College and Dallas Theological Seminary agree with my position, will you concede defeat? Your own assertions are worthless without corroboration from experts, and I am giving you golden opportunities to let FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN scholars be the judges. What better offer could you ever get from a skeptic? What could possibly be more fair?

John A. Broussard

You can't win. No way. No how.

If they didn't agree with Lee, that would just indicate that they aren't true Christians.

If the site of Babylon tomorrow were covered with skyscrapers, that wouldn't work either. Wrong site.

Or, it isn't Babylon because the official language there isn't Babylonian.

Lee is putting forward an unfalsifiable hypothesis. No matter what you come up with, it will never be enough.

How can you prove something wrong that can't be wrong?

His is part of that core aspect of biblical inerrancy. How can you possibly demonstrate an error in the bible when there are no errors in the bible?

Johnny Skeptic

Where is Lee Merrill?

Chili

Hello noah, I would argue that you can't really go by what Christians (tm) say because they'll have 20.000 different answers to your questions.

I say that we are fallen angels for the same reason that we can be God after redemption which makes us both good and evil but basically good and therefore redeemable. It gives us that unique human identity wherein we are called to become master of our own earthliness wherefore the hu- was added to our identity as "man in the image of God." Let me add that the prefix hu- indicates that man is heavenly if you allow me to place heaven opposite to earth in the context of the world hu-man (from humi = earthly). Hence, hu-man is 'fallen man' but only fallen and therefore an angel by his own volition.

Yes, Adam was a fallen angel because he was the name given to the newly created identity wherein only shame can be conceived to exist. This identity was conjectured by man in Gen.3 when he became consciously aware of his own existence which never gained assent as a being and therefore was banned from Eden.

Yes, we descended from Adam but only in our mythology and therefore only in our imagination. The answer to this riddle is not to abandon our mythology but to master it so we may be recalled to be a "son of man" either as Catholic or Jew. The idea here is to become son of man first and later fully man.

Chili

The message here Johnny is that if thinkers like you are called Christians I don't want to be one of them.

Christianity cannot be a religion if it is the end of religion. Myths are true and since religion is a means to the end it cannot be true but must be the way to truth.

John A. Broussard

Lee is a nickel and dimer.

Look up singer645 in the debate forum. Here's what he says:

"The Bible contains approximately 1000 prophecies, hundreds which have been fulfilled and the rest which are waiting to be fulfilled."

Phew! Do you ever have your work cut out for you.

Sauron

No you haven't. You've tossed out enough claims to fill a library, but evidence? None at all.

On the other hand, the skeptics have presented evidence from history, and also photographs of present day, showing that Babylon has been rebuilt. Your response to that was -- predictably -- to change the definition of rebuilt several times.

Which would be useless anyhow, since finding ruins today would not prove that Babylon wasn't rebuilt in the past.

Says who? You? And how would you know this? Oh, that's right -- lee_merrill doesn't have to research, prove or investigate. He just *claims*.

A little hint, lee --- you are wrong about this particular point as well. Stop guessing.

But that particular point is part of the prophecy, lee. You don't get to pick and choose which parts of the prophecy you like the most. You need to defend all of it, and stop running and stalling for time.

You didn't answer his question, lee. You dodged it. Why do you act so dishonestly?

1. Except that Babylon has already been rebuilt-- and christians haven't been convinced;

2. Except that you have personally been presented with photos refuting your claims -- yet you still try to explain it away, and refuse to accept the prophecy being overturned;

3. Except that the Babylon prophecy has been disproven on a half-dozen other grounds, so no further disproving is necessary;

4. Except that you still haven't given us evidence that rebuilding Babylon would sway any opinions of christians - so why would anyone bother to take up your silly, lame challenge?

You always duck and run, instead of answering items 1-4. What do you think such behavior tells the audience and the lurkers? Do you think you are a good witness for christianity, when you fail to answer questions and feign confusion? When you repeat previously refuted statements, hoping no one remembers or hoping that repetition (instead of facts) will wear down your critics?

Probably because the middle ground - the lurkers - haven't put themselves in to the logic-proof boxes that fundamentalist christians live inside. Those people are worth saving from the mental disease of biblical fundamentalism.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Well, read on! I added that neither you nor I can prove this one way or the other, so let's move on.

I meant this in regard to whether Arabs have pitched tents there or kept flocks there, though, and not in regard to whether Babylon has been rebuilt.

Well, if you refuse to rebuild Babylon, when the Bible says it will never be rebuilt, then I question your sincerity in your refusal! If you are attempting to clearly disprove other prophecies, which indeed, you are.

I don't mean you will convince everyone! But those who are committed to truth, I think you will convince them. Never mind the Flat Earth Society. And I also mentioned the prophecy that Babylon would never be reinhabited, now that is not so easy to get around, if it was indeed all covered with skyscrapers.

It appears I missed this. Who, may I ask, is the mayor of Babylon? May I also have the address of his office? A map would be nice, what are the main streets? And the city limits?

Well, the point is that most Christians (insists Johnny) do not think the Babylon prophecy has been disproven. So rebuilding or reinhabiting this city would be a clear contradiction, or rebuilding Hazor (see Jer. 49:33). Several opportunities to clearly disprove Scripture! And yet there is an remarkable reluctance to even attempt this.

Regards,
Lee