Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Veritass · 07-14-2011, 02:40 PM

Quote:

I've got three drag queens, an ace, and a purview in the hole.

I don't believe you; you should get that hole measured.

dockeen · 07-14-2011, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veritass

Quote:

I've got three drag queens, an ace, and a purview in the hole.

I don't believe you; you should get that hole measured.

Well, then, RAISE him.

dockeen · 07-14-2011, 05:33 PM

Quote:

there's an outside chance that there might be fairies.

Hey, you can't hold that party against me, I was drunk!

simon kole · 07-20-2011, 08:28 AM

duplicate post

Perspicuo · 07-20-2011, 05:53 PM

Derail on meaning of "atheist" split over to "The meaning of "atheist" (split from "Logical Inconsistency of the Bible")"

Have fun over there. Those who desire to discuss the 'Logical Inconsistency of the Bible', may continue to do so.

Sheshbazzar · 07-21-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

ראית איש חכם בעיניו תקוה לכסיל ממנו׃
There are men who can read this, even as they read it 2500 years ago.
My words are incisive and decisive, and are going to by far outlast simon's faulty arguments.

Hey Shesh - where is that quote from? I don't recognize it. Is it rabbinic?

Proverbs 26:12.

Apology for this long delayed reply Davka. I am presently engaged in a heavy schedule of business & travel, and until Fall my available free time is much too limited to remain actively involved in simon's protracted threads.
Caught up on my reading today, and you have all been presenting sensible objections and counter-arguments.
Gotta run.

Shalom, Sheshbazzar

.

Davka · 07-21-2011, 03:04 PM

Interesting. The Hebrew comes across quite differently from the NASB.

NASB reads "Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him."

Hebrew reads (approx) "Do you see (a) man wise in his (own) eyes? (This is) hope for a fool from us." The implication in the Hebrew seems to be that if there are men so foolish as to believe themselves wise, then there is hope for the rest of us fools.

Sheshbazzar · 07-21-2011, 07:04 PM

The NLT translation "There is more hope for fools than for people who think they are wise." reflects a similar view.
I prefer preserving that wonderful range of idiomatic meaning and of the ambiguity present within the Hebrew, which is maintained only through presentation in the original language. Thus I did not even attempt any English translation as any such is always in some manner deficient.

Of course, as always, the context in which any saying is being used is everything, Something that always quite escapes the comprehension of those doctrinally dogmatically inclined to be "wise' in their own eyes".
It is the wise man that knows his foolishness, but every fool esteems himself wise.
Or as an ancient sage observed, The wind blows where ever it will; Most often right over the head of the undiscerning.

Jedi Mind Trick · 07-26-2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

There is a basic logical inconsistency in the Bible. The Calvinists take one side, while the Arminians take the other. What is more, both sides are found in Scripture.

Examintion of the Scriptures shows that the key to understanding this seemingly logical contradiction is Dt 29:29 - "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow (obey) all the words of this law."

So do we have an example anywhere in the Bible of these two wills in operation? Yes, we do.

The relationship between the secret things and the revealed things which we are to obey is shown in Ex 7:1-3.
In v.2, God gives his revealed will for Pharoah, "Let Israel go."
Then in v.3, God gives his secret will for Pharoah (secret to Pharoah, but not to Moses), "But I will harden his heart. . .so he will not listen to you."

NB: The first mention of Pharoah's heart in the account (v.3) is that God will harden his heart (also in Ex 4:23; Dt 2:26-30). I'll return to what "hardening the heart" by God involves.

But back to the account. Because God is sovereign, he can ordain in his secret will** that which is contrary to his revealed will.***The Scriptures at the bottom give examples of acts of God** which are diverse from his revealed will.***

Now the implications of Dt 29:29. That God's revealed will (Arminianism) to come, to repent, to believe, to be saved; i.e., words we are to obey (Rev 22:17; Eze 18:32; Mk 1:15; Ac 2:49, 17:30; 1Tim 2:4; 2Pe 3:9, etc.) are in fact disobeyed does not mean that God's secret will (Calvinism) is not done (Mt 18:7; Mk 13:7, 14:21; Jn 13:27; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Ro 11:25; Eph 1:11).

When Scripture indicates that something happens contrary to God's will (Ex 9:17), it is contrary to God's revealed will (Ex 9:13). Nothing is contrary to God's secret will (Ex 4:21; Ps 33:10; Pr 20:24; Is 8:10, 14:24, Lam 3:37; Ac 4:28).

While Scripture shows that God's secret will for men (Ex 10:1-2, 11:910, 14:4, 17) is not always the same as his revealed will for men (Ex 9:13-16), it is his revealed will that is to govern men's actions. His secret will governs his actions. Sometimes those wills coincide, as they did for Paul (Ac 9:15-16); sometimes they do not, as they did not for Pharoah (Ex 4:21-23). But mankind will be judged by the revealed will of God (Arminianism), the words they are to obey, and not by the secret will of God (Calvinism)--Dt 29:29.

And this leads to one more consideration on the subject.
When Scripture declares what man is forbidden to do (revealed will), that is not to say God is forbidden to do it (secret will). Man is forbidden
to hate his enemies (Mt 5:44),
to withhold forgiveness (Mk 11:25),
to take revenge (Lev 19:18),
to retaliate (Lk 6:29),
to judge the hearts of others (Mt 7:1), or
to punish the sons for the sins of their fathers (Dt 24:16).

While God
hates his enemies (Ps 5:5-6, 11:5, 34:16; Pr 3:22, 11:20, 16:5; Jer 12:8),
forgives only those who repent (Mk 1:4, Lk 13:3, 24:27; Ac 3:19, 5:31),
revenges (Na 1:2; Ro 12:19; Rev 19:2),
retaliates (1Sa 15:2-3; 2Pe 2:13),
judges (1Pe 4:5), and
punishes for the sin of the fathers those sons who do not repent of those sins in their own lives (Ex 20:5; Lk 11:48-51).

The God of the Bible is sovereign.
The will of the God of the Bible is not thwarted by men (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35), but quite the contrary (Job 5:12; Ps 33:10).
Nor are the plans of the Bible's God conditioned on, or determined by, the actions of men (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28).
Likewise, he sustains no loss because of the actions of men (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48; Mt 5:26).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing "in advance" what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do.
(See Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26; Ezr 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12; 7:5; Pr 21:1, Eze 14:9; Da 1:9; Jn 6:37; Ac 2;23, 4;28, 13:48; Ro 9:18; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).
God knows in advance what is going to happen, because he has decreed that it shall happen.

So in light of all the Scriptures, there is no basic logical inconsistency in the Bible.

And now to God hardens men's hearts.
Actually, men's hearts are hardened from birth, as the result of Adam's sin (Mk 3:5, 6:43--dulled 8:17-21, 10:5, 16:14; Mt 7:21, 13:14-15, 15:16; Lk 19:42). They have to be "unhardened" (Jn 3:3, 5-6) by God's grace. All God has to do is withdraw his softening grace in order to "harden" men's hearts, or to confirm them in their hardness.

SUMMARY: God not only is sovereign, he also acts sovereignly.
__________

**Ex 9:12; Jdg 9:23; 1Sa 18:10; 1Kgs 22:23; Eze 14:9; Mt 18:7; Mk 13:7, 14:21; Jn 13:27; Ac 2:23, 4:28; Ro 11:31-32

***Ex 9:13; Eze 18:32; Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30; 1Tim 2:4, 4:10; 2Pe 3:9
__________

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Hedshaker · 07-26-2011, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perspicuo

Purview, purview, purview, purview, purview, purview, purview, purview, purview...

Is this some game where purview is some sort of wild card?

I've got three drag queens, an ace, and a purview in the hole.

At least you're dealing from a full deck

07-20-2011, 05:53 PM	#535
Perspicuo Moderator - History of Non Abrahamic Religions, General Religious Discussions Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Latin America Posts: 6,620	Derail on meaning of "atheist" split over to new thread Derail on meaning of "atheist" split over to "The meaning of "atheist" (split from "Logical Inconsistency of the Bible")" Have fun over there. Those who desire to discuss the 'Logical Inconsistency of the Bible', may continue to do so.

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07-20-2011, 08:28 AM	#534
simon kole Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: southwest Posts: 1,761	duplicate post

07-21-2011, 03:04 PM	#537
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	Interesting. The Hebrew comes across quite differently from the NASB. NASB reads "Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him." Hebrew reads (approx) "Do you see (a) man wise in his (own) eyes? (This is) hope for a fool from us." The implication in the Hebrew seems to be that if there are men so foolish as to believe themselves wise, then there is hope for the rest of us fools.

07-21-2011, 07:04 PM	#538
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The NLT translation "There is more hope for fools than for people who think they are wise." reflects a similar view. I prefer preserving that wonderful range of idiomatic meaning and of the ambiguity present within the Hebrew, which is maintained only through presentation in the original language. Thus I did not even attempt any English translation as any such is always in some manner deficient. Of course, as always, the context in which any saying is being used is everything, Something that always quite escapes the comprehension of those doctrinally dogmatically inclined to be "wise' in their own eyes". It is the wise man that knows his foolishness, but every fool esteems himself wise. Or as an ancient sage observed, The wind blows where ever it will; Most often right over the head of the undiscerning.

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