Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SkepticBoyLee · 02-06-2006, 12:29 PM

Isn't it pertinant for Christians to accept the book of Enoch as inspired scripture since it was mentioned by Jesus and other NT writers?

Toto · 02-06-2006, 12:40 PM

You might want to start by reading this: Proof that Christ was not divine based on the book of Enoch

Tigers! · 02-06-2006, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticBoyLee

Isn't it pertinant for Christians to accept the book of Enoch as inspired scripture since it was mentioned by Jesus and other NT writers?

I thought that the book of Enoch was only mentioned by Jude (Jude 14-15).
A mention of a book or work by a biblical author does not automatically give the quoted work canonicity. The quoted work may be useful for a certain point or quote. It does not mean that the rest of it is very useful.
Paul also mentioned some Greek writers but no one tries to give canonical status to their works.

Toto · 02-06-2006, 03:48 PM

From the link above:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naphtali Jones

Now the clincher. In Matthew 22: 29,30 Jesus directly references the book of Enoch and calls it scripture. The Sadducees are asking him a question about marriage after the resurrection and Jesus replies with “You are mistaken, not knowing the scriptures…. For in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven�?. Exactly where in scripture is this reference found? Only one place – you guessed it, the Book of Enoch. “Therefore have I given [men] wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you [angels] were spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling�?. Enoch 15:5-7

Tigers! · 02-06-2006, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From the link above:

Fancy that, I never realised.

Toto · 02-06-2006, 04:41 PM

An article on one of my google alerts:

Book of Enoch is a juicy story about evil

Quote:

. . ..

Many allege that early Christians purposely suppressed this book for centuries because of its revelations into the origins of good and evil. Some even say it explains why reports of modern alien abductions and such suicidal cults as the Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate got so much media attention.

The book in question supposedly offers the revelations of Enoch, the father of Methuselah and the great-grandfather of Noah. Just as important, he was of the seventh generation of mankind, and you're probably aware how magical the number seven is in the Bible.

As a result, some scholars say the book was once cherished by Jews and Christians alike, alleging that even Christ himself used concepts from it in his teachings. They point to Genesis 5:24 ("And Enoch walked with God ... ") as proof he was favored.

But here's where the book ran into trouble, some say: Much of Enoch talks about how evil filled the world when fallen angels abducted and mated with human women, leading to the "giants on the earth" (the Nephilim) as described in Genesis 6.

Conspiracy theorists allege that the thought of angels mating with humans eventually appalled religious leaders, and they tried desperately to destroy every trace of the book. Because of that, the spirits of the dead Nephilim continue to haunt the Earth, and, without reading Enoch, mankind lacks the knowledge to resist them. At least one Web site ( www.alienresistance.org ) even drew parallels to "The X-Files" plot line.

...

the book was pretty much forgotten until 1773, when Scottish explorer James Bruce discovered the book in Ethiopia, where it apparently is revered in the Ethiopic church. Copies also turned up among the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 1940's.

SkepticBoyLee · 02-06-2006, 06:07 PM

Thats what I was gonna get to Toto. Jesus mentions Enoch as scripture. It would seem to me that it is pertinant for Christians to accept and may the book Canon and to accept the demon/human hybrid stories as well.

Roger Pearse · 02-07-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

.
...the book was pretty much forgotten until 1773, when Scottish explorer James Bruce discovered the book in Ethiopia, where it apparently is revered in the Ethiopic church.

By a curious coincidence I was today looking at the first edition of Mr. Bruce's memoirs, "Travels to discover the source of the Nile" (ca. 1790, 5 vols). I had hoped to read about how he acquired a Coptic Ms. of gnostic texts now in the Bodleian. I also looked at the sale catalogue of his manuscripts, made by Alexander Murray in 1842. The catalogue only gives a single line, that Bruce had bought it in Medinet Habu (Thebes) after it had been discovered in a ruined convent locally. Bruce himself doesn't mention the purchase, as far as I could see in the 2,500 pages.

I don't know what the abbreviated copies are like, but it's quite easy reading and gives an interesting picture of how these countries were run.

There are some passages where Bruce is commissioning translations of some Ethiopic books in Ethiopia (into what, I did not discover). So it's fairly clear how he came to obtain his Ethiopic books.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

John Kesler · 02-09-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigers!

A mention of a book or work by a biblical author does not automatically give the quoted work canonicity. The quoted work may be useful for a certain point or quote. It does not mean that the rest of it is very useful. Paul also mentioned some Greek writers but no one tries to give canonical status to their works.

There is a difference between simply quoting or alluding to a work, as was done in Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12, and what Jude did with Enoch:

Quote:

14 It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "See, the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

First, Jude endorses Enochian authorship of the quote, which comes from 1 Enoch 1:9. Second, Jude says that Enoch "prophesied" about something that was taking place in Jude's day. (Compare Jesus' use of Isaiah in Mark 7:6-7.) Third, Enoch's contents are referred to in other NT books. If all this happened with a "canonical" book, there would be none of the ad hoc arguments against it. As somewhat of an aside, here is a list of OT books which are not quoted in the NT: Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Lamentations, Obadiah, Nahum, and Zephaniah.

02-06-2006, 12:29 PM	#1
SkepticBoyLee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 759	Christians and the Book of Enoch Isn't it pertinant for Christians to accept the book of Enoch as inspired scripture since it was mentioned by Jesus and other NT writers?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-06-2006, 12:40 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	You might want to start by reading this: Proof that Christ was not divine based on the book of Enoch

02-06-2006, 06:07 PM	#7
SkepticBoyLee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 759	Thats what I was gonna get to Toto. Jesus mentions Enoch as scripture. It would seem to me that it is pertinant for Christians to accept and may the book Canon and to accept the demon/human hybrid stories as well.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.