Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jgreen44 · 07-23-2010, 09:17 AM

1) Gospel of Matthew:

While Mary is pregnant, an un-named angel of the Lord tells Joseph to name the future messiah, "Jesus".

2) Gospel of Luke:

Before she is pregnant, the angel Gabriel tells Mary to name the child, "Jesus."

3) Philippians 2:

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

According to the author of Philippians, it was only after dying on the cross, that Jesus received his name in heaven from God.

Was the author of Philippians not familiar with gLuke or gMatthew because those gospels had not yet been written when Philippians was composed? Or were the authors of gLuke and gMatthew not familiar with Philippians because Philippians had not yet been written when gLuke and gMatthew were composed?

stephan huller · 07-23-2010, 09:39 AM

The only objection to the Philippians argument is that there are examples of substitution of Χριστος for Ἰησοῦς (in Tertullian, Clement and elsewhere). We really can't be sure if it was in front of the the name Ἰησοῦς that everyone was supposed to bow or Χριστος. I suspect the latter which makes more sense if we assume a post-resurrection enthronement of the guy Jesus came to announce (hence the name of the text 'the gospel of Jesus').

What I find more curious is determining the actual name of Jesus. Was it ישו or Ἰησοῦς? Those are the only two real possibilities. Irenaeus, surprisingly seems to say ישו (although it is part of a reactionary argument against Ἰησοῦς having a numerical value of 888 promoted by the Marcosians so who knows).

The Marcionite Isu would seem to be decisive (it looks to me like an attempt to render Ἰησοῦς in Syriac). But who knows ...

aa5874 · 07-23-2010, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

1) Gospel of Matthew:

While Mary is pregnant, an un-named angel of the Lord tells Joseph to name the future messiah, "Jesus".

2) Gospel of Luke:

Before she is pregnant, the angel Gabriel tells Mary to name the child, "Jesus."

3) Philippians 2:

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

According to the author of Philippians, it was only after dying on the cross, that Jesus received his name in heaven from God.

Was the author of Philippians not familiar with gLuke or gMatthew because those gospels had not yet been written when Philippians was composed? Or were the authors of gLuke and gMatthew not familiar with Philippians because Philippians had not yet been written when gLuke and gMatthew were composed?

I think you may need more DATA than Philippians 2.8-10 to formulate any theories about the dating of the Pauline writings.

Nevertheless, the writer of Philippians claimed HIS LORD JESUS DIED.

Is it totally unreasonable to assume the same Philippians' writer ALREADY was AWARE of a Jesus story or heard of a story where Jesus LIVED before he died?

maryhelena · 07-23-2010, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

1) Gospel of Matthew:

While Mary is pregnant, an un-named angel of the Lord tells Joseph to name the future messiah, "Jesus".

2) Gospel of Luke:

Before she is pregnant, the angel Gabriel tells Mary to name the child, "Jesus."

3) Philippians 2:

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

According to the author of Philippians, it was only after dying on the cross, that Jesus received his name in heaven from God.

Was the author of Philippians not familiar with gLuke or gMatthew because those gospels had not yet been written when Philippians was composed? Or were the authors of gLuke and gMatthew not familiar with Philippians because Philippians had not yet been written when gLuke and gMatthew were composed?

How Jesus got his name is immaterial - that's all storyline - it's the name that he did get that is relevant, that has some significance.

All the name 'Jesus' relates to is some ideas about 'salvation', 'deliverance', 'rescues'.

So whether one is using the name of 'Jesus' within a pseudo-historical context, like the gospel storyline, or a spiritual context, like Philippians, the thrust is the same - a 'salvation' idea is being delivered.

As a name for a historical figure the name of 'Jesus' is meaningless - it is not an identification marker by which to find an assumed historical 'Jesus'. At best it's a tag on label - so any historical figure that was deemed to be a 'salvation' figure, a 'Jesus' figure - would, in actuality, have his very own, very different name. Which boils down to the fact that the historical camp will going on looking for its historical 'Jesus' until kingdom come....

Jesus

Quote:

"Jesus" (pronounced /ˈdʒiːzəs/) is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), itself a Hellenisation of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yĕhōšuă‘, Joshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšûă‘), meaning "Yahweh delivers (or rescues)

darstec · 07-23-2010, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

1) Gospel of Matthew:

While Mary is pregnant, an un-named angel of the Lord tells Joseph to name the future messiah, "Jesus".

First of all, it was not necessarily an angel, but simply a messenger. Secondly this messenger also says that he should be called Joshua because of the prophecy that he should be called Immanuel. That simply does not make sense.

Furthermore some manuscripts instead of saying "her son" say "her firstborn son" implying other sons, thus fulfilling the Jewish directive of "be fruitful and multiply".

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

2) Gospel of Luke:

Before she is pregnant, the angel Gabriel tells Mary to name the child, "Jesus."

3) Philippians 2:

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

According to the author of Philippians, it was only after dying on the cross, that Jesus received his name in heaven from God.

Was the author of Philippians not familiar with gLuke or gMatthew because those gospels had not yet been written when Philippians was composed? Or were the authors of gLuke and gMatthew not familiar with Philippians because Philippians had not yet been written when gLuke and gMatthew were composed?

You are using a lax English to discuss tenses in Greek that cannot be rendered properly. This is always a trap for English speaking people who cannot read the Greek (or Hebrew). Consider too all the various different texts that have alternate or even contradictory renderings.

I think we sometimes forget that authors can create different stories quite independent of each other. For example Merlin's Assistant totally ignores most of the legends of Arthur and Merlin but retains a few of the key points. For instance in that story Merlin is beheaded and dies whereas in most of the stories he is still sleeping in some cave. Fiction writers always feel free to change parts of the story but keep a few common elements. Which is just another indicator that the NT is total fiction.

Transient · 07-23-2010, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

1) Gospel of Matthew:

While Mary is pregnant, an un-named angel of the Lord tells Joseph to name the future messiah, "Jesus".

2) Gospel of Luke:

Before she is pregnant, the angel Gabriel tells Mary to name the child, "Jesus."

3) Philippians 2:

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

According to the author of Philippians, it was only after dying on the cross, that Jesus received his name in heaven from God.

Was the author of Philippians not familiar with gLuke or gMatthew because those gospels had not yet been written when Philippians was composed? Or were the authors of gLuke and gMatthew not familiar with Philippians because Philippians had not yet been written when gLuke and gMatthew were composed?

Reminds me of the story of Lambert the Sheepish Lion.
Maybe the messenger just got the names mixed up and gave him the wrong one but by the time he (she, it) worked it out it was too late and now he will forever be known as Jesus instead of ???
But then I woke from my dream and realised it was all a dream and the stories were just fiction

07-23-2010, 09:17 AM	#1
jgreen44 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: About 120 miles away from aa5874 Posts: 268	How Jesus got his name: Three conflicting accounts 1) Gospel of Matthew: While Mary is pregnant, an un-named angel of the Lord tells Joseph to name the future messiah, "Jesus". 2) Gospel of Luke: Before she is pregnant, the angel Gabriel tells Mary to name the child, "Jesus." 3) Philippians 2: 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, According to the author of Philippians, it was only after dying on the cross, that Jesus received his name in heaven from God. Was the author of Philippians not familiar with gLuke or gMatthew because those gospels had not yet been written when Philippians was composed? Or were the authors of gLuke and gMatthew not familiar with Philippians because Philippians had not yet been written when gLuke and gMatthew were composed?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-23-2010, 09:39 AM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The only objection to the Philippians argument is that there are examples of substitution of Χριστος for Ἰησοῦς (in Tertullian, Clement and elsewhere). We really can't be sure if it was in front of the the name Ἰησοῦς that everyone was supposed to bow or Χριστος. I suspect the latter which makes more sense if we assume a post-resurrection enthronement of the guy Jesus came to announce (hence the name of the text 'the gospel of Jesus'). What I find more curious is determining the actual name of Jesus. Was it ישו or Ἰησοῦς? Those are the only two real possibilities. Irenaeus, surprisingly seems to say ישו (although it is part of a reactionary argument against Ἰησοῦς having a numerical value of 888 promoted by the Marcosians so who knows). The Marcionite Isu would seem to be decisive (it looks to me like an attempt to render Ἰησοῦς in Syriac). But who knows ...

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.