Cege

I struggle with either argument concerning the credibility of the Bible, and therefore with believing Jesus rose from the dead, etc. I think what I believe is that Jesus rose from the dead but I question the reliability on much of many of the details.

It's difficult to separate what I've been taught over 60 years in the Baptist church from what I actually believe and embrace.

Cege

I was a journalist in my earlier years, and I think that very much affects my approach. I realize that many people do not trust journalists or what they write as being honest, but I did try to write truthfully and honestly.

I also learned that what I was told by witnesses and interested parties to the stories I relayed differed from person to person, sometimes because they were not telling the truth, or were exaggerating, or their memories were not reliable, or any other numbers of reasons.

People are often willing to believe what is improbable and impossible (from my perspective at least); in fact, they want to believe, and will often believe in spite of evidence to the contrary.

Zenaphobe

Maybe people writing the gospels suffered from the same human cognition constraints that we still posses today in that they could not really identify with a concept of existing in an radically different manner, ie. without a body that was some how connected to the person who died.

Try and imagine a non corporeal existence that involves interaction with other existing entities and defined spaces. I don't think it's easy at all. Just like trying to imagine not existing after you die. I don't believe any part of my conscious will survive death, but I can't imagine my consciousness ceasing to exist.

Since believers then, like believers now, were attached to the concept of some form of future environment to inhabit, more than likely thought there has to be some kind of body (maybe altered, but a body nonetheless) to inhabit when they get there, why would Jesus be an exception?

Why do people who claim to see ghosts always seem to describe them spatially in concert with the terrain or enclosures they see them in? Sure, they can walk through walls, but you never hear them described as traveling down the hall tilted 45 degrees anterior or sunk up to their shoulders in the ceiling. Even when people think of the bodiless dead, they still imagine them through some of the normal human expectations that apply to the living.

I think the empty tomb had more to do with limits of human cognition than concerns that Yahweh had an opportunity to assuage fears of his ability to resurrect the long dead (Issiah's tale of the bones that are revived comes to mind here) .

Then again, we are discussing magic as if it has to make sense for people to believe it.

Johnny Skeptic

From a biblical perspective, the details are very important. The resurrection of a person would not by itself imply anything more than that a person rose from the dead. A valid case for Christianity would also have to include sufficient evidence that 1) Jesus performed miracles, that 2) Jesus said that he would rise from the dead, that 3) Jesus said that his shed blood and death would atone for the sins of mankind, and that 4) Jesus made some post-resurrection group appearances. What evidence do you have regarding those issues?

Jesus said that in order to become saved, a man must love God with all of his heart, soul, and mind. In your opinion, do you love God with all of your heart, soul, and mind? Jesus also said that he would spew lukewarm people out of his mouth. That is additional evidence that the God of the Bible requires strong belief and commitment from his followers. I am not suggesting that you are or are not lukewarm. I am just curious about how committed to Christianity you believe you are, and what you believe about what God requires of Christians.

Transient

Stuff like that tho brings back thoughts of control mechanisms by leaders of groups of people. I think that much in the OT and NT should be looked in terms of leaders coming up with concepts, rules etc to control their followers. Maybe they sort of believed the junk but more than likely they excused their inventions of rules etc because "they were good for the people".
As far as what to believe in the bible - if "Jesus" was not god and did not rise from the dead then the whole bible is total crap and not worth a cracker.
I really wish it was true, I want to live forever with a loving god and with nice people, but not enuf that I will pretend that I believe it or that I will turn off my brain and embrace it - that same logic would allow me to embrace any religion even mormonism.
100% Wish does not easily convert to 1% Faith or 1% Belief.
I wonder if you need >50% Belief to get in

Cege

You are referring, I think, to gMatthew 22:34-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...40&version=NIV where Jesus is asked by a Pharisee which is the greatest commandment. Jesus doesn't say that his answer is the way a man must be saved. (BTW, I don't believe that Jesus' words are recorded verbatim)

I believe that Jesus' sacrifice made it possible for a man to be saved without following the letter of the OT law, the letter of the law being obviously impossible. To be "saved", according to the NT writings, one must believe in his/her heart that Jesus is the Son of God who died for his/her sins, was raised from the dead, and now resides in heaven.

Here you are referring to the Revelation of John 3:14-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...16&version=NIV and I put little stock in that book of the bible.

I believe that God requires Christians to believe what I wrote above about being "saved", and to live their consequent lives being kind, honest, and faithful to tell others how to also be "saved".

Johnny Skeptic

From a biblical perspective, the details are very important. The resurrection of a person would not by itself imply anything more than that a person rose from the dead. A valid case for Christianity would also have to include sufficient evidence that 1) Jesus performed miracles, that 2) Jesus said that he would rise from the dead, that 3) Jesus said that his shed blood and death would atone for the sins of mankind, and that 4) Jesus made some post-resurrection group appearances.

What evidence do you have regarding those issues?

Do you believe that you will go to heaven, and that skeptics will not go to heaven?

Cege

The evidence you ask about is obviously what is contained in the bible. It is sufficient in whole for some, insufficient in some areas for some, and unbelievable for others. To answer your questions 1-4 I could quote biblical passages for you, but that doesn't change various views of what evidence that actually provides.

I hope that there is a heavenly afterlife where there is no pain, suffering, hate, etc. If there's one, I hope to be included in it.

I'm skeptical about skeptics not being included.

I think we've drifted off-topic in this thread.