Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dongiovanni1976x · 06-04-2006, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Katzenstien

“We must assume that the siege of Tyre was actually a blockade of the island, from the mainland opposite. After the Tyrian mainland had been occupied (cf. Ezek. 26:6,8), the siege of the island itself started. But the island was surrounded by strong and high walls, strengthened by high and mighty towers (Ezek. 26:4,9). Thus Tyre defied the Babylonian army. As in the days of Shalmaneser V (and later in the days of Sennacherib), the Tyrians remained the rulers of the sea (Ezek. 26:17). Still the inhabitants must have suffered, as food, and perhaps even water had to be brought by ships. Tyre’s eastern trade routes were closed, and it is doubtful whether Tyre could trade in those regions (even indirectly). The war was, therefore, hard for both sides, and Tyre was the actual loser, but the destruction of the city itself, prophesied by Ezekiel, did not come to pass. In this sense we must understand the self-correction of the prophet, when he announced that Nebuchadnezzar would be rewarded by the conquest of Egypt (Ezek. 29:19).” "The History of Tyre" 1973 p331

Quote:

Originally Posted by NRSV Oxford Ecumenical Study Bible

Footnotes on Verse 7-14 p1216 in the 3rd edition, 2001:
“Nebuchadnezzar will besiege the island city, which lay a half-mile offshore from the mainland city, after destroying the outlying settlements on the mainland (daughter-towns, v. 8). In fact, Nebuchadnezzar besiged the island of Tyre (after the mainland fell) for thirteen years. Tyre lost the war, but it was not destroyed or pillaged (as prophesied, v. 12)”

Lee is confused how Nebuchadnezzar standing “balefully” on the mainland opposite Tyre, could have had any affect on bringing the Tyrians to the negotiation table.

To provide an earlier example I offer the siege of Shalmaneser V.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x[/quote

We are told that during the reign of Tyrian king Eloulaios (aka, Eluleus/Luli, c. 729-694 BCE), the King of Assyria, Selampsas (Shalmaneser V, c. 726-722 BCE), invade Phoenicia. (Josephus, Ant. IX, 284) That Sidon, Arke and Ushu allied with Shalmaneser V against Tyre, but King Luli held out.(ibid, 285) Shalmaneser V “placed guards at the river (Litani) and the aqueducts to prevent the Tyrians from drawing water, and this they endured for five years, and drank from wells which they had dug.” (ibid, 287)

Lee still questioned how this could affect the water supply on the island…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee_Merril

But how could Neb have kept them from drinking from their wells on the island? Not that islands are likely to have such wells…

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

Lee, the difficulty in getting drinking water in this fashion contributed to the pressure upon the Tyrian's to negotiate with Nebuchadnezzar II just like they did with Shalmaneser V, Esarshaddon, Sennacherib and Ashurbanipal before him.

Dr. Katzenstein, Dr. Cherab, Dr. Pierre Bikai have all be quoted repeatedly for demonstrating that during times of war Ushuians fled to Tyre for safety. This put a strain on the already overcrowded island.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron

1. Wells *do* run dry - there are such things as seasonal wells;
2. Wells can be poisoned;
3. The island was supporting extra people now, since the inhabitants of the mainland had evacuated to the island - the well may have simply been overtaxed;
4. You have presented no evidence that islands are unlikely to have wells - claiming it out of the clear blue simply will not suffice;

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah

Lee lots of islands have wells.
The island of Vieques has wells. So does Sri Lanka. Salt Spring Island next to where I live, has wells. The island I live on, Vancouver Island, has wells So does Kent Island . Long Island has wells. Guam has wells and so do about a thousand other island

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gullwind

To build ships you need timber, which is not plentiful on the island

So,
1. we have several previous sieges of the island by blockading the Litani river and fresh springs, as well as Tyre’s source for timber.
2. we have evidence that Tyre would become excessively overcrowded in times of war
3. we know that overcrowding in cramped spaces breeds all kinds of disease and can contribute significantly to besieged people’s desire to capitulate, or at least negotiate with their attackers.
4. we have evidence that many other islands have wells, which supports Meander’s account in the Tyrian archives.
5. And we have multiple attestations form historians and archaeologists that the siege was done from the mainland against the island.

Lee, I would like this to be a separate thread so we can focus upon this aspect of the Tyre prophecy.

So now you rebuild your case for why you believe Nebuchadnezzar was simply besieging Ushu, a city that has never withstood a siege in all of recorded history, instead of the wealthy city of Tyre, the “religious and administrative center” of the Tyrian Kingdom that allied with Egypt against him (Nebuchadnezzar).

I would like to examine and weigh the possible motives, what evidence that supports such motives and the archaeological and literary evidence to support each side.

Your turn.

dongiovanni1976x · 06-04-2006, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Merrill

Because fresh-water wells come from underground fresh-water springs, which won’t likely occur out in salt sea areas. Where would the fresh water spring come from?

Perhaps you should ask noah who claims to live near one...

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah

Lee lots of islands have wells.
The island of Vieques has wells. So does Sri Lanka. Salt Spring Island next to where I live, has wells. The island I live on, Vancouver Island, has wells So does Kent Island . Long Island has wells. Guam has wells and so do about a thousand other island

dongiovanni1976x · 06-04-2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee merrill

(Sauron)Could you point out which part shows the walled city that was besieged by Neb was on the island though? This seems to state the opposite, that further attack would involve attacking the island, and without a fleet Neb could not pursue this objective.

Lee, why don't you ask Nina why the king of Tyre would submit himself to Nebuchadnezzar if he was so well protected in his island fortress. If overcrowding, disease, lack of supplies after 13 years was not making his superstitious people question whether they were being ablely ruled...and how such conditions would more readily be brought about by someone blockading the water and timber supply on the mainland which Tyre depended upon.

lee_merrill · 06-04-2006, 08:50 PM

Hi Don,

Do we really need a separate thread for this? Why not keep all the discussion in the Farrell Till Tyre thread?

But as I said in the other thread, I agree I was wrong about freshwater wells on islands.

Regards,
Lee

dongiovanni1976x · 06-05-2006, 09:57 AM

Oh, no problem Lee. I was just having difficulty keeping up with some of the branches that have sprung up that sometimes do not get adequate attention. Consider that a dead issue then. Thank you.

Do you still think it more likely that the 13 year siege was of Ushu than that of Tyre? And is so could you present your case here please so we can give it the attention it requires without any interuption from the other aspects of this debate...?

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06-04-2006, 08:50 PM	#4
lee_merrill Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,074	Hi Don, Do we really need a separate thread for this? Why not keep all the discussion in the Farrell Till Tyre thread? But as I said in the other thread, I agree I was wrong about freshwater wells on islands. Regards, Lee

06-05-2006, 09:57 AM	#5
dongiovanni1976x Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 686	Oh, no problem Lee. I was just having difficulty keeping up with some of the branches that have sprung up that sometimes do not get adequate attention. Consider that a dead issue then. Thank you. Do you still think it more likely that the 13 year siege was of Ushu than that of Tyre? And is so could you present your case here please so we can give it the attention it requires without any interuption from the other aspects of this debate...?

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