Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 04-18-2011, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Far more likely that none of it ever happened at all.

JW:
I've always liked Gerald Massey's explanation for the two Christian dates for the supposed crucifixion. The sources are astrological and not historical. The 14th day is based on the lunar calendar (Jewish) and the 15th day is based on the solar calendar (Pagan) (MM/aa look out!)

Joseph

"I don't deny Christ's divinity, in fact I assert it!" - Gerald Massey

ErrancyWiki

avi · 04-18-2011, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Pete's post has been split off here since it seems to involve a different sort of chronology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

I've always liked Gerald Massey's explanation for the two Christian dates for the supposed crucifixion. The sources are astrological and not historical. The 14th day is based on the lunar calendar (Jewish) and the 15th day is based on the solar calendar (Pagan) (MM/aa look out!)

As typical, I fail to comprehend either of these two posts.

a. What could be more on topic than a discussion of the calendars used in ancient times, for a question about ambiguity in dating?

b. How can astrology have any bearing on this question? Did you mean astronomical, rather than astrological?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

BTW I was initially doubtful about a Friday crucifixion being preserved in the early tradition but then I remembered that Friday is 'day six' and the Marcosians clearly took an interest in the number 6 (cf Irenaeus AH 1 13 - 21). Creation (bereshith) has always been read 'mystically' as 'created six' by Jewish and Samaritans since the very beginning.

The hexagram, pentagram, and swastika have been used as mystical symbols by both jews and non-jews for at least 2500 years..... I have no idea why.

I still don't understand what difference the number 6 makes, in terms of clarifying the ambiguity surrounding the story of the crucifixion and resurrection.

Does three days correspond to three calendar days, (by whichever calendar---Thanks Pete, very useful post!!!), or 72 hours of elapsed time, as spin explained from the old testament reference to Jonah. spin's references to kings and Samuel, suggest that "the third day" refers to the morning following the second night, i.e. Sunday, assuming a Friday afternoon crucifixion.

avi

stephan huller · 04-18-2011, 07:58 AM

Quote:

I still don't understand what difference the number 6 makes, in terms of clarifying the ambiguity surrounding the story of the crucifixion and resurrection.

Because Friday is the sixth day. The Marcosians took interest in the fact that (a) it was the sixth hour (b) that there were six people on the mountain (c) that there are six letters in Jesus's name etc. Irenaeus doesn't mention the sixth day but it would fit into the pattern of things he does report about the sect.

The number six always is connected with creation by Jews and Samartians. The point would be that the Passion was really a creation narrative - or if you accept my Aramaic etymology - a 're-formation' or transformation narrative about the disciple which originally did accompany Jesus to the Passion (and was subsequently edited out of the narrative).

avi · 04-18-2011, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

I still don't understand what difference the number 6 makes, in terms of clarifying the ambiguity surrounding the story of the crucifixion and resurrection.

Because Friday is the sixth day. The Marcosians took interest in the fact that (a) it was the sixth hour (b) that there were six people on the mountain (c) that there are six letters in Jesus's name etc. Irenaeus doesn't mention the sixth day but it would fit into the pattern of things he does report about the sect.

The number six always is connected with creation by Jews and Samartians. The point would be that the Passion was really a creation narrative - or if you accept my Aramaic etymology - a 're-formation' or transformation narrative about the disciple which originally did accompany Jesus to the Passion (and was subsequently edited out of the narrative).

"six people on the mountain"....umm, I haven't been there, but....isn't this locus specified as a traditional execution ground? Would there not have been hundreds of folks there to witness the execution of someone so important?

Six people makes no sense. There could have been six officials, or six centurians, or six relatives.....From whence did this magical quantity of onlookers emerge?

Sixth hour? You mean the hours begin at daybreak, not midnight? Are we certain of that? How do we know? Is that true for the Greeks, and the Romans, and the Jews?

Six letters in Jesus' name? יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎‎
Oops, I forgot to take my meds. Just a moment.....

Ok, for a moment, I thought I had counted only five letters.....

it's better now, I am more calm. less excited....

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Irenaeus doesn't mention...

that we can agree on.

Irenaeus doesn't mention anything, we have NOT EVEN ONE original text by Irenaeus, so those who write,

"Irenaeus thought thus and so",
or
"Irenaeus believed thus and so",
are completely deceived.

We have no idea what "Irenaeus" thought, or believed. Further, even if we DID possess, (but we don't) his original texts, not recopied by Eusebius, we still wouldn't know if his writing was tongue in cheek, or authentic.

Thank you Stephan, for clarifying the significance of the mystical number six. I remain skeptical. I have no idea about Marcosians, because we lack any credible documents from them....(grace a les catholiques.)

I am too simple minded to be able to deduce any sort of mystical or code-like text in the gospels, or Paul for that matter. The "patristic" evidence is so muddle headed, incoherent, jumbled, interpolated, redacted, and bashed beyond recognition, that I simply cannot deduce anything of utility in its confines....

avi

Roller · 04-18-2011, 12:18 PM

Gosh, I hoped God could at least keep his calendars straight.

From what I remember, John places the events at a slightly different date in order to score a theological point (Lamb of God sacrifice), not due to a calendar mishap. No?

stephan huller · 04-18-2011, 03:01 PM

Six letters in Jesus name = Iesous. Irenaeus says it's two and a half = Ysu

stephan huller · 04-18-2011, 03:03 PM

The reason the number six is connected with creation:

six directions to the world - (1) up (2) down (3) forward (4) backward (5) right (6) left

I kid you not. Samaritans and Jews agree on the 'sixthness' of the world. The world to come will be seven.

The sixth letter is vav which is a 'secret' letter because no words naturally occurring in Hebrew begin with vav (or at least almost none). Vav is a symbol of repentance because it changes the tense of the verbs it modifies. Also the letter vav is the letter at the middle of the Torah (if you count all the words from beginning to end). I wonder if the vav was understood to symbolize the stauros on which Jesus was crucified (i.e. crucified unto the world = vav) at least by the Marcosians.

On the Marcosian interest in the sixth letter read Irenaeus AH 1.14 - 16. The Jewish interest is as early as the earliest kabbalistic literature. The Samaritan interest throughout the Mimar Marqe (teachings of Mark).

stephan huller · 04-18-2011, 03:10 PM

Here's the typical Jewish mystical interest in the 'sixthness' of the universe:

Quote:

In the beginning of Creation, when Infinite Light filled all reality, G d contracted His Light to create hollow empty space, as it were, the "place" necessary for the existence of finite worlds. Into this vacuum God drew down, figuratively speaking, a single line of light, from the Infinite Source. This ray of light is the secret of the letter vav. Though the line is singular in appearance, it nonetheless possesses two dimensions, an external as well as an internal force, both of which take part in the process of Creation and the continuous interaction between the creative power and created reality.

The external force of the line is the power to differentiate and separate the various aspects of reality, thereby establishing hierarchical order, up and down, within Creation. The internal force of the line is the power to reveal the inherent interinclusion of the various aspects of reality, one in the other, thereby joining them together as an organic whole. This property of the letter vav, in its usage in Hebrew, is referred to as vav hachibur, the vav of connection"--"and." The first vav of the Torah--"In the beginning G d created the heavens and [vav] the earth"--serves to join spirit and matter, heaven and the earth, throughout Creation. This vav, which appears at the beginning of the sixth word of the Torah, is the twenty-second letter of the verse. It alludes to the power to connect and interrelate all twenty-two individual powers of Creation, the twenty-two letters of the Hebrew alphabet from alef to tav. (The word et [which appears before the two instances of the word "the" in this verse, and is spelled alef-tav] is generally taken to represent all the letters of the alphabet, from alef to tav. Our Sages interpret the word in this verse to include all the various objects of Creation present within heaven and earth.)

In Biblical Hebrew, the letter vav also possesses the function of inverting the apparent tense of a verb to its opposite from past to future or from future to past (vav hahipuch). The first appearance of this type of vav in the Torah is the letter vav" which begins the twenty-second word of the account of Creation, "And God said...." This is the first explicit saying of the ten sayings of Creation: "And G d said [the verb 'said' being inverted from the future to the past tense by the vav at the beginning of the word--'And']: 'Let there be light,' and there was light." The phenomenon of light breaking through the darkness of the tzimtzum, the primordial contraction, is itself the secret of time (future becoming past) which permeates space.

In the Divine service of a Jew, the power to draw from the future into the past is the secret of teshuvah ("repentance" and "returning to God") from love. Through teshuvah from fear, one's deliberate transgressions become like errors; the severity of one's past transgressions becomes partially sweetened, but not completely changed. However, when a Jew returns in love, his deliberate transgressions become like actual merits, for the very consciousness of distance from God resulting from one's transgressions becomes the motivating force to return to God with passion even greater than that of one who had never sinned.

Every Jew has a portion in the World to Come, as is said: "And all your nation are 'tzadikim'; forever they will inherit the land." The power of teshuvah to completely convert one's past to good, is the power of the vav to invert the past to the future. This transformation itself requires, paradoxically, the drawing down of light from the future to the past.

Drawing the future into the past in the Divine service of man is the secret of learning the inner teachings of the Torah, that aspect of the Torah which is related to the revelation of the coming of the Mashiach. Rashi explains the verse in the Song of Songs: "May he kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is better than wine" as alluding to the sweet teachings that will be revealed by the Mashiach. When a person intently studies the secrets of the Torah, he draws from the future into the past, in order to strengthen himself to return in complete teshuvah from love and thereby convert his past into future.

FORM

A vertical line.
A pillar.
A man standing upright.

Worlds:

Twelve pillars of Creation - the twelve lines of a cube. The twelve tribes.
Seven pillars of Creation - six directions and time. The seven shepherds.
One pillar of Creation the future. Mashiach.
The connecting rods in the Tabernacle.
Souls:

Complete stature of man - standing on earth with head reaching up towards heaven.
The Jewish People standing together.
The "Golden Path" in the service of God.
The torso in relation to the hands, feet, and brit.
Divinity:

The pillar of Truth.
Consistency of the middle pillar.
Divinity piercing through the middle point of every Creation.
NAME

A Hook

Worlds:

The connecting hooks of the pillars in the Tabernacle - concealment and revelation.
The axis of symmetry and the equilibrium between symmetry and asymmetry.
Souls:

The power which links together the souls of Israel.
The points of will to do God's Will engraved in the heart of every Jew.
The axis which connects the good points present within every Jew.
Divinity:

The connecting link between the separate Laws - engraved letters of Divine essence - of the Torah.
The force of connection between the Divine sparks inherent throughout reality.
NUMBER

Six

Worlds:

Six Days of Creation, and their six corresponding Divine forces active in creation.
Six letters of the word bereishit, "In the beginning."
Six alefs in the first verse of the Torah.
Six-millennium duration of the world.
Six directions of the physical world.

Souls:

Six wings (states of love and fear in the soul) of the fiery angels.
"Give truth to Jacob."
Divinity:

Six orders of the Mishnah.
The six "wings" of the "Magen David."
Six cubits - the dimensions of the Tablets received by Moses at Mt. Sinai.

stephan huller · 04-18-2011, 03:13 PM

The Marcosian mystical interest in the letter 'episemon' is identical with the Jewish and Samaritan in vav - both have an ordinal value of six.

Sheshbazzar · 04-18-2011, 04:20 PM

It is amazing how much horse-shit people can invent.

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04-18-2011, 12:18 PM	#25
Roller Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cleveland Posts: 658	Gosh, I hoped God could at least keep his calendars straight. From what I remember, John places the events at a slightly different date in order to score a theological point (Lamb of God sacrifice), not due to a calendar mishap. No?

04-18-2011, 03:01 PM	#26
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Six letters in Jesus name = Iesous. Irenaeus says it's two and a half = Ysu

04-18-2011, 03:03 PM	#27
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The reason the number six is connected with creation: six directions to the world - (1) up (2) down (3) forward (4) backward (5) right (6) left I kid you not. Samaritans and Jews agree on the 'sixthness' of the world. The world to come will be seven. The sixth letter is vav which is a 'secret' letter because no words naturally occurring in Hebrew begin with vav (or at least almost none). Vav is a symbol of repentance because it changes the tense of the verbs it modifies. Also the letter vav is the letter at the middle of the Torah (if you count all the words from beginning to end). I wonder if the vav was understood to symbolize the stauros on which Jesus was crucified (i.e. crucified unto the world = vav) at least by the Marcosians. On the Marcosian interest in the sixth letter read Irenaeus AH 1.14 - 16. The Jewish interest is as early as the earliest kabbalistic literature. The Samaritan interest throughout the Mimar Marqe (teachings of Mark).

04-18-2011, 03:13 PM	#29
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Marcosian mystical interest in the letter 'episemon' is identical with the Jewish and Samaritan in vav - both have an ordinal value of six.

04-18-2011, 04:20 PM	#30
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	It is amazing how much horse-shit people can invent.

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