Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-02-2012, 03:34 PM

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I am a biblical scholar, I adhere to no religion, and I do not think supernatural beings exist, or if they do, that we have any mutual business. According to one often-voiced opinion, I can therefore have no moral values, no ethics. But I can and do, and these are in fact shared with most people, including those who are religious. They include individual human freedom under the rule of law, democracy, equality of race, colour, sex and religion, and freedom of speech. These values reject theft, murder, tyranny, discrimination, intimidation, colonization and slavery. None of these values can be shown to derive from religion, and certainly not from the Bible—on the contrary, many religions and their scriptures are opposed to them. Neither Yahweh nor Allah can be quoted as bestowing any of them on humans. From where do they come, then? Quoting the American Declaration of Independence, we might say that ‘we hold these truths to be self-evident.’ But we haven’t always seen them as such, so more likely they have partly been learned, by experience and through reflection. As a species, I think we have developed more refined moral codes, whether or not we live by them any more obediently. But whatever their source, the fact is that we have a consensus in most countries and societies (and articulated by the United Nations) that these are shared human values.

These values regulate my personal, social and political life—and also my professional activity as a biblical scholar. Obviously, not believing in any kind of god, and respectful of human science, I do not subscribe to biblical metaphysics, while its ethics only rarely meet the modern secular values listed above. I obviously do not accept that ‘God’ chose ‘Israel’, nor gave it land, nor did he send his ‘son’ to earth. This does not mean that I despise Judaism or Christianity, or religion in general: secular values are actually built on a foundation of tolerance and respect (not distinctly religious values before the secular age). But I do not accept that my profession should differ from any other academic discipline in admitting any kind of religious bias or ideology into its practice. The notion that I should necessarily identify or even sympathize with what I study is surely a nonsense, unless I teach in a seminary, in which case my work is not purely academic.

.. . .

sotto voce · 08-02-2012, 04:11 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

Secular Values and Biblical Scholarship

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I am a biblical scholar, I adhere to no religion, and I do not think supernatural beings exist, or if they do, that we have any mutual business. According to one often-voiced opinion, I can therefore have no moral values, no ethics. But I can and do

Of course you do.

Infant Sorrow

""My mother groan'd! my father wept.
Into the dangerous world I leapt.
Helpless, naked, piping loud;
Like a fiend hid in a cloud.

Struggling in my father's hands,
Striving against my swaddling bands;
Bound and weary I thought best
To sulk upon my mother's breast.""

William Blake

Every mother's child is moral. We announce this fact to the world, just as soon as we get the doctor's slap. Now maybe morality is happenstance; maybe a moral cosmos is the test-bed of character that a creator brought into being. But the notion that religion provides morality is fatuous. Molecules make morality.

What does religion actually do? It takes morality as a given. More than that, it takes bad conscience as a given. It deals with the consequences of human existence in a moral world, in the context of a moral deity or moral deities. Religion reckons to come to terms with bad conscience, by one means or another.

Or at least, it did, two thousand years ago, though even then it got modified by politics. Since then, the great majority of new religions seem to have come into existence for no better reason than to contradict the religion that came into being two thousand years ago.

semiopen · 08-03-2012, 07:34 AM

Judaism came into being 2000 years ago? Even Minimalist would argue with that.

Minimalist · 08-06-2012, 08:02 PM

Rabbinic judaism developed in the aftermath of the destruction of the temple in 70. Give them about 20 years to get their act together and you are at 90 AD. By my count that is 1,922 years ago.

Temple judaism revolved around animal sacrifice.

Does the fact that both are called "judaism" mean they are the same thing?

spin · 08-06-2012, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Rabbinic judaism developed in the aftermath of the destruction of the temple in 70. Give them about 20 years to get their act together and you are at 90 AD. By my count that is 1,922 years ago.

Temple judaism revolved around animal sacrifice.

Does the fact that both are called "judaism" mean they are the same thing?

No. But it would be nice to have some clear understanding of the relationship between these two Judaisms at least as to theology.

(It might be worth noting that Davies has talked about "Judaisms" for many years and used the term regarding differing positions noted in the DSS.)

Tenorikuma · 08-06-2012, 11:38 PM

I would probably consider Christianity to be as much the religion of the Hasmonean temple as rabbinical Judaism is — which is to say, not very much.

Minimalist · 08-07-2012, 07:20 PM

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But it would be nice to have some clear understanding of the relationship between these two Judaisms at least as to theology.

Couldn't agree more.

As an example, I'm always amazed when a 5-6th century synagogue turns up with mosaics including Greek gods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzippori_Synagogue

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The mosaic floor is divided into seven parts. Near the entrance there is a scene showing the angels visiting Sarah. The next section shows the binding of Isaac. There is a large Zodiac with the names of the months written in Hebrew. Helios sits in the middle, in his sun chariot.

Really? That should have pissed off "Moses."

semiopen · 08-08-2012, 07:15 AM

One has to wonder how the existence of synagogues contrasts with the quarter million Jerusalem temple cult barbecue pilgrims mentioned in a recent thread.

Oldest_synagogues_in_the_world

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In Israel, archaeologists have uncovered many ruins of synagogues from 2000 years ago, including several that were in use before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

I guess several means more than one although the article just mentions Masada.

My previous comment was simply responding to Sotto's obscure post

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Since then, the great majority of new religions seem to have come into existence for no better reason than to contradict the religion that came into being two thousand years ago.

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08-03-2012, 07:34 AM	#3
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	Judaism came into being 2000 years ago? Even Minimalist would argue with that.

08-06-2012, 08:02 PM	#4
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Rabbinic judaism developed in the aftermath of the destruction of the temple in 70. Give them about 20 years to get their act together and you are at 90 AD. By my count that is 1,922 years ago. Temple judaism revolved around animal sacrifice. Does the fact that both are called "judaism" mean they are the same thing?

08-06-2012, 11:38 PM	#6
Tenorikuma Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Japan Posts: 156	I would probably consider Christianity to be as much the religion of the Hasmonean temple as rabbinical Judaism is — which is to say, not very much.

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