Jeffrey Gibson

I've been trying to draw up a summary of what it is -- as is indicated by popular literature on Matt. 6:9-13//Luke 11:2-4 -- that those in the pew believe they are praying for when they recite the words of the Lord's Prayer.

I'm posting here what I've come up with so far.

I'd be grateful for your feedback. Do I have it right? Are there things I've missed?

With thanks in advance,

Jeffrey

P.S. I'd be grateful if those who ride hobby horses did not use this thread as a place to do so..

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What Christians think they are saying when, in following Jesus’ admonition to do so, they addresses God as Father is that God is not only a personable being, but one who is as close by, as caring, as merciful, and as providential as modern fathers are expected to be with their children.

What they think they are praying for when they say “May your name be hallowed” is either that God will act in such a way that everyone will recognize him for the holy being that he is or, working from the impression that “to be hallowed” means “to be praised”, that everyone, and not just Christians, will eventually give him the honour and respect and the kinds of worship he deserves.

What they think they are praying for when they say “May your kingdom come” is either the gift of a profound inner personal and individualized experience of God’s love, forgiveness, or empowering presence, or it is the hurrying of God’s establishment on earth of something that they have been taught properly belongs to the world’s future – a promised end of all earthly misery and injustice, a reign of peace and well being, the experience of heaven on earth.

What they think they are praying for when they say “give us this day our daily bead” is relief from present need.

What they think they are praying for when they say “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” is either a remittance of expected punishment for the sins they have individually committed or a release from any and all guilt experienced on account of them, since more often than not, the “us” and the “our” and the “we” of the prayer is transmuted consciously or unconsciously into “me”, “my” and “I”.

And what they think they are praying for when the say “lead us not into temptation” is either divine protection from experiencing or succumbing to the sinful enticements and hard travails that daily plague us or, following the idea that some scholars have put forward that here the word “temptation” refers to a series of trials that God’s elect will be subjected to when he finally moves to re-establish his sovereignty over the earth and rid the world of all rebelliousness against him, preservation in the so called “final” and potentially overwhelming test of faithfulness that they believe awaits Christians in the future.

Toto

Hi Jeffrey - this might not be the best place for a survey of Christians. But playing along:

From my earlier years in a liberal Methodist church, my guess is that people at that time saw "God the father" primarily as a patriarchal authority figure. The modern changes in the role of fathers seems like a very recent innovation.

This word is so far from modern English that I think it glides by without leaving much of an impression.

Definitely the latter. God's kingdom on earth means the end of misery, injustice, alienation, and the return to the Garden.

I don't see any deep symbolism here - it just refers to food.

All have sinned, and all need forgiveness. I don't think anyone takes this personally and starts to think of individual sins recently committed. Forgiveness is recognized as a good thing, until the pew sitter goes out and finds his car blocked in the parking lot.

Those many years ago when I recited this prayer (in public school, no less), I don't recall thinking this through. If I had, I might have realized that the devil tempts us, God is not supposed to tempt us.

But, in general, I think that most Americans treat Christian liturgy as performance art, or a ritual engaged in for the purpose of ritual. The point is not to think.

andrewcriddle

I would hope (without any hard evidence) that those praying “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” are not only asking for forgiveness for themselves but also for God's help in forgiving others.

Andrew Criddle

squiz

Even with the current financial downturn, I don't think many people in Western countries are actually starving these days, or even see starvation as a possibility. I don't think it is particularly deep symbolism to see this as a request to keep supplying us with our basic requirements and I think most probably see it as such.

Why only Americans?

Toto

I can't speak for other countries.

JEST2ASK

:devil1: I was not aware we had a National Spokesperson.

squiz

I understand that you are trying to be careful in not making claims about what you don't know, but when you think about it your statement referred to a way of thinking that most likely applies to most people everywhere, at least to some degree. If you want to be careful in not overreaching yourself, why not restrict yourself to just your home state, or your home city, or your local sub-culture. I guess the trick is in knowing when it is safe to extrapolate.

I guess I am reacting to the instinctive tendency of many Americans to concern themselves only with America and Americans. It is a type of intellectual isolationism. We are constantly being told by Americans about how diverse America is and also how exceptional. Nevertheless, America is an integral part of Western civilisation (whatever a few old fascists a few years ago might have said about "old Europe"), with cross-pollination of ideas taking place in both directions. Overemphasis of any country's exceptionalism leads to nationalism.

Anyway, I'll get off my hobby horse now. Sorry Jeffrey.

judge

I imagine you have opened yourself to getting it as wrong as one could.

You want to know what those "in the pew" think, and, curiously instead of asking them you consult "popular literature" and a forum not frequented by many "in the pew".

avi

A serious assessment ought, in my opinion, commence by examining the GREEK text, i.e. the original text, in which this passage was composed, 18 or 19 hundred years ago....
Here's what I have come up with:
(Greek)

ΠΑΤΕΡ ΗΜΩΝ Ο ΕΝ ΤΟΙΣ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΙΣ
ΑΓΙΑΣΘΗΤΩ ΤΟ ΟΝΟΜΑ ΣΟΥ
ΕΛΘΕΤΩ Η ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΑ ΣΟΥ
ΓΕΝΗΘΗΤΩ ΤΟ ΘΕΛΗΜΑ ΣΟΥ,
ΩΣ ΕΝ ΟΥΡΑΝΩ ΚΑΙ ΕΠΙ ΤΗΣ ΓΗΣ
ΤΟΝ ΑΡΤΟΝ ΗΜΩΝ ΤΟΝ ΕΠΙΟΥΣΙΟΝ
ΔΟΣ ΗΜΙΝ ΣΗΜΕΡΟΝ
ΚΑΙ ΑΦΕΣ ΗΜΙΝ ΤΑ ΟΦΕΙΛΗΜΑΤΑ ΗΜΩΝ,
ΩΣ ΚΑΙ ΗΜΕΙΣ ΑΦΙΕΜΕΝ ΤΟΙΣ ΟΦΕΙΛΕΤΑΙΣ ΗΜΩΝ
ΚΑΙ ΜΗ ΕΙΣΕΝΕΓΚΗΣ ΗΜΑΣ ΕΙΣ ΠΕΙΡΑΣΜΟΝ,
ΑΛΛΑ ΡΥΣΑΙ ΗΜΑΣ ΑΠΟ ΤΟΥ ΠΟΝΗΡΟΥ.
ΑΜΗΝ.

Transliteration into Roman Letters:

Pater hêmôn ho en toes ouranoes;
hagiasthêtô to onoma sou;
elthetô hê basileia sou;
genêthêtô to thelêma sou,
hôs en ouranô, kae epi tês gês.
ton arton hêmôn ton epiousion dos hêmin sêmeron;
kae aphes hêmin ta opheilêmata hêmôn,
hôs kae hêmeis aphiemen toes opheiletaes hêmôn;
kae mê eisenenkês hêmas eis peirasmon,
alla rhysae hêmas apo tou ponerou.
hoti sou estin hê basileia kae hê dynamis kae hê doxa eis tous aeônas;
amên.

The Greek/English dictionary gave me the following result when I entered ΑΓΙΑΣΘΗΤΩ
http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon
"no matching words"
So, regarding the word "hallowed", it is not simply a question of:
Here's another dictionary, same lack of translation:
http://www.babylon.com/define/105/Greek-Dictionary.html
same problem:
http://www.lingvosoft.com/English-Greek-Dictionary/
Apparently, "ΑΓΙΑΣΘΗΤΩ" is non trivial to define.
I looked in my copy of Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek, but, alas, ΑΓΙΑΣΘΗΤΩ is not listed there either.
Here's hoping you can point to an online dictionary where we can elaborate the English derivation of hagiastheto.
avi

Jeffrey Gibson

Why, especially since the Greek text of the prayer is not what most Christians (with the exception of Greek Orthodox ones) recite?

Because the aorist imperative form of the verb doesn't appear in a Greek dictionary?

:banghead::banghead:

Of course you couldn't find ΑΓΙΑΣΘΗΤΩ in any Greek dictionary or basic vocabulary lists. Nor will you ever. That's because ordinary Greek dictionaries/Lexicons (as opposed to analytical ones)do not list words according to any of their inflected forms, let alone by their aorist imperative ones, but by their first person singular indicative present tense forms.

May I suggest that before you make such pronouncements about Greek words, let alone about what is and is not in Lexicons, you learn something about parsing Greek words and about the way that Lexicons (and vocabulary lists in grammars) are set out.

Jeffrey