Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 09-01-2007, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Early Christian writers created elaborate allegorical meanings for Noah and the Ark: thus the First Epistle of Peter compares the salvation of those aboard the Ark through the waters of the Flood to the Christian saved through baptism,[6] and the equation of Ark and Church is still found in the Anglican rite of baptism, which asks God, "who of thy great mercy didst save Noah," to receive into the Church the infant about to be baptised. Early Christian artists frequently depicted Noah standing in a small box on the waves, symbolising God saving the Church as it persevered through turmoil.

St. Augustine of Hippo (354–430), in City of God, demonstrated that the dimensions of the Ark corresponded to the dimensions of the human body, which is the body of Christ, which is the Church.[7] St. Jerome (c. 347–420) called the raven, which was sent forth and did not return, the "foul bird of wickedness" expelled by baptism;[8] more enduringly, the dove and olive branch came to symbolize the Holy Spirit and the hope of salvation and, eventually, peace.

St. Hippolytus of Rome, (d. 235), seeking to demonstrate that "the ark was a symbol of the Christ who was expected," stated that it was built in three storeys, the lowest for wild beasts, the middle for birds and domestic animals, and the top level for humans, and the male animals were separated from the females by sharp stakes, to help maintain the prohibition against cohabitation aboard the vessel. He adds that a door was built on the east side, that the bones of Adam were brought aboard together with gold, frankincense and myrrh, and that the Ark floated to and fro in the four directions on the waters, making the sign of the cross, before eventually landing on Mount Kardu "in the east, in the land of the sons of Raban, and the Orientals call it Mount Godash; the Arabians and Persians call it Ararat".[9]

...

dlawbailey · 09-01-2007, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Delia

The "will float" requirement seemed to be missing from the material following "Simple challenge:" above. Such a boat, which can obviously be built, could not possibly float on even still water and would capsize under its own weight within a week, even if empty.

[snip much of the remainder - we are violently in agreement at this point]

.....Your speculation is that all Christians are necessarily hypocritical, which tars with an unfairly wide brush. To a small extent, it's true, in light of the supposed supernatural abilities Christians should believe they have if they believe Jesus in the Bible (i.e. Mark 11:22-24, Mark 16:17-18) but not to the extent that it's a two-billion-person conspiracy of proclaiming a truth which all who proclaim it know that it's false.

WMD

You are TOTALLY right about my wording in the original challenge. Can I fix that? The seaworthiness is the whole point. I really apologize if I confused people.

As for the number of animals - goodness, that "argument" with fundamentalists has devolved into pure silliness so I don't even entertain it any more.

The point is the boat.

Now, are Christians hypocritical? Well, I know a LOT of nice Christians, but even St. Paul backhandedly, tacitly admitted that looking for Christ in the Old Testament was pretty dicey.

Christians are trying to dovetail texts that don't fit each other.

At least Muslims have the Prophet (PBUH) to sort out God's true message.

But all of 'em have the problem of that darn boat. Build a boat that doesn't float to save the world. Why not 200 cubits or 300?

Clearly the size of the ark is simply there to represent "the biggest boat you can imagine" to the people of the time.

But at some point this cherry-picking of what's true and what's not - what was natural and what was miracle - this will simply discredit the Abrahamic religions entirely. And that will be sad to me. I'd love to see a more graceful exit.

dlawbailey · 09-01-2007, 11:11 PM

....but that's the problem, isn't it?

King David can be Christ. The Temple can be Christ. Abraham's son can be Christ. Ruth can be Christ or Boaz could be Christ.

The symbology in the texts is lovely and meaningful, but try and "transsubstantiate" it and it becomes drivel. And that's really what's happening to religions now. It's very depressing. Hamlet will always be Hamlet, but I think there will be a day when the Bible will simply be ignored. Who knows or cares about the holy books of the great cultures of Crete or the Aztecs. It's all considered just a relic and a curiosity.

That seems a shame. After all, there are all those great Latin lyrics to the religious music of Bach and Mozart and everything.

DBT · 09-01-2007, 11:46 PM

Can't we filter things of value from the dross?

dlawbailey · 09-02-2007, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBT

Can't we filter things of value from the dross?

Well this is what I find so depressing.

** I ** definitely can. But I'm a so-called "natural" atheist. I never understood that people actually believed in this God thing until I was about 14. I just thought it was a metaphor and that's what everybody else believed.

So to me religion is very beautiful, but of course that's because it's never been anything but utterly inconceivable to me that anyone would think it was "true".

For me it's almost an inverse relationship - the more it seems that people could actually think some religious text or idea was true, the less I enjoy it.

Two things creep me out:

The first is obviously when people try to explain these stories as if they really happened.

The second is when people add endless "detail" and all these extra gods and words and concepts and trappings (I'm thinking here of Hindu and some Buddhist texts). The only reason someone would ruin a story with endless detail is if they were trying to make me believe a backstory by brute force.

But I love a religious experience, me. Exaltation, being in the spirit, religious ecstasy, the search for perfect calm. Great stuff. Beautiful mental experience. Just don't ruin it my trying to get me to believe a lot of hocus-pocus.

ecco · 09-02-2007, 10:46 AM

"Drama Queen" indeed! With a railfall rate of roughly 348”/hr, I doubt if any landbased creatures survived the first day. Thirynine more days seems to have no value other than further "testing" Noah (poor bastard).

darstec · 09-03-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlawbailey

The Bible is very clear - a 450-foot wooden boat or barge that can be loaded with tens of thousands of animals and remain seaworthy for a year with a small crew.

No Christians try it because they know they can't do it.

Actually many groups have tried and failed. Subsequently they have slithered to the background hoping nobody remembers. It's working.

Wolfie · 09-03-2007, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Quote:

Johan's Ark is a fifth of the size of Noah's

:grin:

Plus it is built on a steel canal barge!

Bob K · 09-04-2007, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Dutchman builds modern Noah's Ark

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4853890.stm

Quote:
Dutchman Johan Huibers is building a working replica of Noah's Ark as a testament to his Christian faith. The 47-year-old from Schagen, 45km (30 miles) north of Amsterdam, plans to set sail in September through the interior waters of the Netherlands.

Johan's Ark is a fifth of the size of Noah's and will carry farmyard animals.

The point of the Noah's Ark rebuilding would have to be to prove that 450-foot-long wooden barges could have been built and would have been seaworthy and that, therefore, at least the technological claims of the impossibility of building seaworthy 450-foot-long wooden barges would have been eliminated as disproofs of the Noah's Ark story.

If Johan's Ark is less than 450-feet-long, then any seaworthiness of his Ark would not disprove the anti-Ark technological claims.

If 450-foot-long wooden barges could have been built, then at least the Bablical technological claims would have been accurate.

Noah's Ark fundies still would have the responsibility for proving that there was a world-wide flood as described in the Noah's Ark story as well as in the Assyrian/Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh story which preceded the Noahs' Ark story and the writing of the Genesis books of the OT of the Bable.

BTW, the Bable does not record whether or not the gods participated in the building of Noah's Ark, so fundies could not claim there is Bablical evidence the gods so did and THAT is why the Ark could have been a seaworthy 450-foot-long barge.

BTW, since a ship is usually considered to have some means of self-propulsion and thereby be self-propelled, and barges are generally considered to be non-self-propelled, then, technically, by not being self-propelled and thereby being non-self-propelled, Noah's Ark is a barge.

ecco · 09-04-2007, 04:11 PM

Johan Huibers (from the above link:

Quote:

This will speak very much to children... they'll hear the creak of the wood, smell the smell of the dung

Is he saying he is full of shit?

09-01-2007, 11:11 PM	#63
dlawbailey Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 351	And yes, the Ark symbolizes Christ.... ....but that's the problem, isn't it? King David can be Christ. The Temple can be Christ. Abraham's son can be Christ. Ruth can be Christ or Boaz could be Christ. The symbology in the texts is lovely and meaningful, but try and "transsubstantiate" it and it becomes drivel. And that's really what's happening to religions now. It's very depressing. Hamlet will always be Hamlet, but I think there will be a day when the Bible will simply be ignored. Who knows or cares about the holy books of the great cultures of Crete or the Aztecs. It's all considered just a relic and a curiosity. That seems a shame. After all, there are all those great Latin lyrics to the religious music of Bach and Mozart and everything.

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09-01-2007, 11:46 PM	#64
DBT Contributor Join Date: May 2003 Location: ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ Posts: 17,906	Can't we filter things of value from the dross?

09-02-2007, 10:46 AM	#66
ecco Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: SE Posts: 4,845	"Drama Queen" indeed! With a railfall rate of roughly 348”/hr, I doubt if any landbased creatures survived the first day. Thirynine more days seems to have no value other than further "testing" Noah (poor bastard).

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